US Election 2016

[Monkey]

Anyway I'd support this level of taxation, if it can prove a path for us to remove the income tax, it was never meant to be such a painful process to do. I spend $100 just on the software to be able to do my taxes, think of all the people that spend money to have their taxes prepared, it's a whole lot of extra bloat that we are spending on. that is screwing over the lower income people more than the rich, swallowing the $100 fee on a $50,000 income is a lot harder than on a $100,000 income.

Or, alternately, and I realize you're going to hate this idea, we could do what other countries do and pay the IRS to actually figure out our taxes for us. They have all the information. There's no technical need for all of us to have to do our taxes. For people with special cases, they can still file, but the IRS can and should just do 90% of everybody's taxes because they're just not that hard.

Even here in the UK, which I fully admit is a now a fairly backward country, our HMRC (basically the equivalent to your IRS) does our taxes for us. It's only businesses and self-employed people who do their own taxes. The idea that anyone with a job should do their own taxes is archaic and ridiculous.
Also, income tax is a good thing for a country, it just needs to be spent correctly.

The Canada and Mexico tariffs are working as intended, yes the are not implemented, but it's forcing them to try to keep our borders more secure from undocumented migrants, it's all a game of politics, As long as they continue to do that, they won't have tariffs, and we won't have to spend as much policing the undocumented illegal aliens. And this is how those tariffs are actually a Tax on Canada and Mexico, even though they are 0.

Which is going to end up being useless because the vast majority of undocumented workers come in through the ports, not the land borders. It's just hard to show that on camera in a meaningful way to a group of people in this country who vote emotionally, and not rationally..

The 25% plus tariffs that Trump and Musk are trying to put out are certainly not working as intended; they are removing trade altogether. Soon your borders will be very secure because no one will want to go to your country at all. So yeah, i guess you will save money on policing "illegal aliens".

[Z-Man]

Anyway I'd support this level of taxation, if it can prove a path for us to remove the income tax, it was never meant to be such a painful process to do.

Well, implementation details aside, income tax has the big advantage over other forms of taxation that you can tune it in a way that poor people have to pay less of it, proportionally. If you shift that over to consumption tax, it affects everyone. If you want to keep life affordable to everyone, you would have to do at least one of these things:
1. Tax different goods differently. No tax on potatoes, noodles, flour, common vegetables. High tax on champagne and caviar. There is opportunity to promote healthy living there, too, by taxing processed foods high on sugar or fat higher. This will, of course, increase the administrative burden for retail.
2. A sufficiently high minimal wage.
3. Hey, while we're at it, basic universal income, financed by your new consumption tax.
I'd vote for any party that promises to implement all of that


Wait, do I get this right? You guys have to document everything, CALCULATE your taxes, then pay the IRS? And then maybe get audited and if they find anything wrong, you get into trouble?

Around here, a regular worker does not even have to interact with the IRS if they don't want to. Taxes and stuff are directly deduced from the paycheck. If you do interact with them, you just document your income and expenses, and they do the calculation for you. You have to file your taxes if you have other income from freelance work or rent, for everyone else, it is voluntary (because the system is set up so that for everyone else, you can only ever get money back...).
We always file our taxes using a program that costs a little less than 30 Euro per year. It pays, we currently get around 4000 Euro back per year. And yeah, tax law as a whole is complicated aF, but regular people only have to know a tiny subset.

The Canada and Mexico tariffs are working as intended, yes the are not implemented, but it's forcing them to try to keep our borders more secure from undocumented migrants, it's all a game of politics, As long as they continue to do that, they won't have tariffs, and we won't have to spend as much policing the undocumented illegal aliens.

Umm, yeah, it probably did not enter your bubble, but the things Canada and Mexico agreed to do in exchange for not getting those tariffs were mostly things they were doing already, or planning to do anyway. So this wasn't as big a win as you might think.

[kyle]

1. Tax different goods differently. No tax on potatoes, noodles, flour, common vegetables. High tax on champagne and caviar. There is opportunity to promote healthy living there, too, by taxing processed foods high on sugar or fat higher. This will, of course, increase the administrative burden for retail.
2. A sufficiently high minimal wage.
3. Hey, while we're at it, basic universal income, financed by your new consumption tax.
I'd vote for any party that promises to implement all of that

My state has a sales tax, and food is exempt from that, so they already kind of have your first point built in, and I do think more processed foods are taxed, at least prepared food is taxed, and if you eat in a restaurant it's taxed slightly more.
The problem I have with a national level sales tax, is I think it will be the thing congress will go to raise time after time without trying to trim the government first, and eventually it will creep up and we will be taxed as high as Germany is. Apparently when factoring in all taxes, the typical household in US pays ~40% in taxes (note different states have different taxes, so some like Texas may be lower than this). whereas Germans pay around 57% of household income goes to taxes, and in the UK around 59%. (this includes VAT, property taxes and income taxes, social security taxes and sales tax) (see below how grok calculated this)

Higher minimum wage, I don't think will work, it will directly cause high inflation. I believe for the most part people have a choose as to how they want to work and spend their money, if a job is not paying well they can move to another, that shift will force the other company to raise wages and prices.

UBI, we will likely have to do something like that in the next 10 years, but right now I don't think it's needed.

Wait, do I get this right? You guys have to document everything, CALCULATE your taxes, then pay the IRS? And then maybe get audited and if they find anything wrong, you get into trouble?

Pretty much so, the IRS is a big mess, we have several tax brackets, so as you make more you get taxed more, and it is different for a single person and a married couple, so taking taxes out of pay if both people are working becomes a bit of a mess, Then there are incentives to have kids, which will effect taxes differently. Also if you invest and make dividends, some of those are taxed at ordinary income, same thing for selling stock shares, your gains also get taxed. which means it's really hard to figure out what rate they get taxed at until the end of the year.

The employer does take out taxes, based on a form you fill out, you can opt to put in more than your share, and there are even ways to make it less, as you add that you have children, so they can calculate it to be less. Some people use this extra as a form of savings, as they know they would blow the money if they got it, so the get it in a lump sum to buy something bigger. But the real fun is when you don't have enough taken out and at the end of the year you owe money, if you owe too much, or continually owe money, then they impose an extra fee on it. which has screwed me over a few times. I ended up realizing more on my investments, and usually all in the last quarter of the year, that my tax bill became very high.

Umm, yeah, it probably did not enter your bubble, but the things Canada and Mexico agreed to do in exchange for not getting those tariffs were mostly things they were doing already, or planning to do anyway. So this wasn't as big a win as you might think.

but having a tariff threat keeps them doing it

You do realize that 5% inflation in a world where people are lucky to get 3% raises each year means we have less spending power year after year, right?

That is 5% on the goods we import or 10% in your example (and yes I know the full processes, I just wanted to make it a little simpler) That does not mean inflation will be 5 or 10% overall, there are still plenty of things made or produced in America that won't be as effected by the tariffs. and as monkey said noone will want to come here, so we won't have the government handing out money to undocumented illegal immigrants, causing for more of a demand driven inflation.

You might think that 16 cents is irrelevant, but it just made buying whatever the item is significantly more difficult, because wages have been stagnant for 20 years. Average inflation has been around 3% while average wage increases have been around 1.5%.

I've been looking more and more into wage growth, it seams as you get closer to 6 figures, the rate of increase, typically does go down, So I am curious what this number is for just those making under 60k a year. I also question if it tracks those who shift jobs to take more pay.

It was also proven that during the pandemic companies were deliberately raising prices above their cost increases just to be greedy. A few billionaire CEOs were caught on hot mics saying so (or leaked memos, or what-have-you). And your tariff plan only helps when these billionaire CEOs are a lot more altruistic than they actually are.

Maybe some, but a lot is demand driven, and low supply due to the government forcing shut-downs, or them just adjusting because they figured that they would likely have to retain after the shutdowns, so they wanted to stay ahead of that and capitalize while they could, I don't think a lot were that far out of line based on the supply shock we all saw as we went into the stores. supplies are 100% back (except eggs), but yet it's insurance that is still screwing us most in terms of inflation. (yes I read the CPI report monthly)

----------------------------
Putting this down here, how Grok figured out those tax percentages

Code: Select all

Total UK Tax Burden (in GBP):

    Income Tax + NICs + VAT + Council Tax + Other Indirect Taxes = £7,500 + £3,000 + £6,600 + £1,500 + £1,000 = £19,600.
    Average Household Income: Approximately £33,000.
    Total Tax Burden in GBP: £19,600.
    Percentage of Income to Taxes: (£19,600 / £33,000) * 100 ≈ 59.4%.

Code: Select all

Total US Tax Burden (in USD):

    Federal Income Tax + State Income Tax + Payroll Taxes + Sales Tax + Property Tax + Other = $8,700 + $2,500 + $4,590 + $4,200 + $3,000 + $500 = $23,490 per year.
    Average Household Income: Approximately $60,000.
    Total Tax Burden in USD: $23,490.
    Percentage of Income to Taxes: ($23,490 / $60,000) * 100 ≈ 39.2%.

Code: Select all

Germany Estimated Total Tax Burden: 

    Income Tax: €45,000 * 0.25 = €11,250
    Social Security (employee part): €45,000 * 0.1975 (half of 39.5%) = €8,887.50
    VAT (on roughly 50% of income as spending): €22,500 * 0.19 = €4,275
    Other Taxes: Let's estimate around 3% for simplicity, €1,350.
Total tax: €11,250 + €8,887.50 + €4,275 + €1,350 = €25,762.50.
Percentage of Income to Taxes: (€25,762.50 / €45,000) * 100 ≈ 57.2%.

[Z-Man]

The problem I have with a national level sales tax, is I think it will be the thing congress will go to raise time after time

Well, that's the risk with all taxes, isn't it?

Higher minimum wage, I don't think will work, it will directly cause high inflation.

True, but that stops when the minimum wage is high enough that people can afford to live off it. I mean, the alternative is people having a full-time job and not being able to live from it. I guess that's a choice?

I believe for the most part people have a choose as to how they want to work and spend their money, if a job is not paying well they can move to another, that shift will force the other company to raise wages and prices.

Depending on the job market, that simply may not be possible for them. People don't choose to work low paying jobs. Most work low paying jobs because they can't get higher paying jobs (Some will pick a lower paying job over a higher paying one because they enjoy it more, I'm sure).

Umm, yeah, it probably did not enter your bubble, but the things Canada and Mexico agreed to do in exchange for not getting those tariffs were mostly things they were doing already, or planning to do anyway. So this wasn't as big a win as you might think.

but having a tariff threat keeps them doing it

That they were doing it anyway rather suggests that the threat had no effect and will not have any effect. I'll leave this here:

(source)

Code: Select all

Germany Estimated Total Tax Burden: 

    Income Tax: €45,000 * 0.25 = €11,250
    Social Security (employee part): €45,000 * 0.1975 (half of 39.5%) = €8,887.50
    VAT (on roughly 50% of income as spending): €22,500 * 0.19 = €4,275
    Other Taxes: Let's estimate around 3% for simplicity, €1,350.
Total tax: €11,250 + €8,887.50 + €4,275 + €1,350 = €25,762.50.
Percentage of Income to Taxes: (€25,762.50 / €45,000) * 100 ≈ 57.2%.

Yeah, I don't know where it got those numbers, but they're wrong. For a household (assuming that's two adults), you need to earn 125000 Euros per year to get to an average 25% income tax rate. Even for a single adult household, the tax rate at 45000 Euros per year would 20%. (I think I found the error, the INCREMENTAL tax rate at 45000 for two people is 25%, meaning everty Euro they earn MORE only gives them 75 Cents more in the bank; since the first 20000 Euros are basically tax free and the tax only ramps up from there, in total, they'd only pay 4.544 Euro or 10.10%.)

VAT is 19%, that is correct, but not for food; for food, it's only 7%. That it only applies it to 50% of the income compensates that somewhat. And, well, the Social Security stuff isn't really comparable with anything on the US side, as it includes full healthcare and pension funds. (Also, if we want to include that and we're being honest, the numbers are too low; yeah, what the employee pays is around 20% of what is pre-tax sallary, but the employer pays just as much on top of it, making the total pre-tax wage 120% of what the employee sees... it's complicated)

Ultimately, just throwing raw numbers around and labeling some expenses as "Taxes" and others not misses the point. What matters is: Take your regular worker, say a supermarket cashier, a car mechanic, a plumber, a used gimp mask salesman. On their wage, given all forced or reasonable deductions (colege funds for the kids, if required, for expample, healthcare, rent/mortgage...), can they still live? Live near their workplace, get food on the table, a couple of luxuries like a nice vacation here and there?

[Monkey]

OK, so you cant just increase national minimum wage alone because then greedy ******* will just put up the cost of living. You need strict rules about rents/mortgages and other basic costs of living. We don't have enough of that here in the UK and you in the US certainly don't have enough of that. However, not having a minimum wage at all is far worse than having one without these rules.

As for taxes, you're not getting it kyle. Taxes are a good thing if done correctly. The problem is that evil and corrupt politicians can't always be trusted to put them to good use. As Z-Man correctly said, you need income tax for several reasons, especially in a country with such a difference in wealth between the rich and the poor (the US being the ultimate example of this in the western world). Of course, as we all hopefully know, most very rich people don't pay much or indeed any income tax. This needs addressing.
Here in Europe, the countries with the best quality of life don't have low taxes, they just spend their taxes on the correct things, including on minimising poverty.

I'll mention again the tariff thing because some people here seem to think that it is doing what it was set out to achieve. It's not. Trade between the US and other countries is going down the pan. The long term effects for the US will be disastrous and irreversible; the average American will suffer, it's just a matter of time.

[kyle]

Z-man, thanks for posting some confusion in Grok, I figured some of that would not be correct, That's why I posted how it calculated it, I havent looked too much at the US ones myself, but I might see what Grok3 does, It's something I do want to look into a bit more. another think I was thinking about is is Social security or pensions, that at least in the US is kind of a dirty tax, I expect I won't get all of what I paid into it. My dad paid into it his whole life, and got nothing from, as he passed away right before he was going to start taking from it. There is also healthcare built into that, as you said, which technically is not a tax in the US, but I probably should add in that number or compare that number.

Monkey we have a minimum waged, it's just lower, than it probably should be, and I've worked for that wage before, college job, you have to account, that some jobs will not pay for a living, because they are filled with people working for other reasons. or part time.
As for rents, they go up with demand / housing prices, We need less restrictions so homes can be built, but the influx of migrants, all needing houses was a very large factor in why they went up, we did not have a large enough supply of houses, to be able to house everyone, which made prices go up. The other factor of raising rents is property taxes, and insurance rates increasing, if you cannot cover your expenses you are forced to raise the rates. As a landlord, when my property taxes doubled one year, i was forced to raise rents, I'm one of the good ones, my rents for the people who have been there are still about 25% less than the average pricing. If I were to get new tenants, I would raise rents before renting it out again.

Of course, as we all hopefully know, most very rich people don't pay much or indeed any income tax.

I would say that's a 1/2 lie, Elon Musk sold Tesla to but Twitter, and paid the largest tax bill in history, the thing that people don't like is, that they are wealthy because of their stock in companies, but if they would sell it all at once, it would crash and be closer to worthless, Did you see how long it took after Elon sold for Tesla to reach back to the same level, over 3 years. my point is, he looks wealthy until there is massive selling in the stock. Granted a lot of his selling was due to options expiring that he had to sell some for taxes, or he would lose the shares.
Now to the truth point, the rich can take out loans against their shares in stock, and never need to sell the shares, unless they go down, that banking loophole probably needs to be addressed. but the proposed unrealized gains tax would have been deadly on the economy.

I still think the being stuck in a low paying positions is all about drive and motivation, if you continue to see you can't make it, you either have to adjust your quality of life, look for something that pays more, work a side hustle, or ask for better pay. I did the latter, and I've for the most part kept up with where I wanted to be(have not checked in the last 2 years). I'm probably worth much more to other companies, but sometimes like i said, I still leave money on the table, just like I do with the rental properties. My goal was never to make the top salary for what I do.

[Lucifer]

Monkey we have a minimum waged, it's just lower, than it probably should be, and I've worked for that wage before, college job, you have to account, that some jobs will not pay for a living, because they are filled with people working for other reasons. or part time.

This is all bullshit. McDonald's locations aren't kept in business by part time high school/college kids. They're kept in business by full-time grownups who rely on their paycheck to support their families. All fast food and retail works like this. And I mention them because these are the jobs people usually say are there just for teenagers to get work experience. No, they're kept around by full-time professionals who deserve a professional wage for professional work, not some minimum wage that means their employer would pay them less if it wasn't illegal.

If you're going to assert that raising minimum wage increases inflation, prove it. If you can do that, you can go get you a PhD in economics, because economists can't prove it, and they have tried really hard.

Raising tariffs, on the other hand, definitely causes inflation. Plenty of proof of that. There's consensus among economists for that.

As for rents, they go up with demand / housing prices, We need less restrictions so homes can be built, but the influx of migrants, all needing houses was a very large factor in why they went up, we did not have a large enough supply of houses, to be able to house everyone, which made prices go up. The other factor of raising rents is property taxes, and insurance rates increasing, if you cannot cover your expenses you are forced to raise the rates. As a landlord, when my property taxes doubled one year, i was forced to raise rents, I'm one of the good ones, my rents for the people who have been there are still about 25% less than the average pricing. If I were to get new tenants, I would raise rents before renting it out again.

Also a bunch of bullshit. Rents track property values, not demand. There are numerous regulations that are there to prevent landlords from price gouging. Demand does play into it, but the actual situation is that developers can't build enough units fast enough to meet demand, and some of the units built can't be filled because stagnant wages means they're priced out of most people's price ranges before construction is even finished.

This is a situation where raising the minimum wage substantially would be a game changer for everyone.

Of course, as we all hopefully know, most very rich people don't pay much or indeed any income tax.

I would say that's a 1/2 lie

Monkey's exaggerating a bit, because we actually have rich people that brag about not paying taxes, one of which is currently president, and we have rich people who brag about paying their taxes because they're not douchenozzles, none of which are currently president.

I still think the being stuck in a low paying positions is all about drive and motivation, if you continue to see you can't make it, you either have to adjust your quality of life, look for something that pays more, work a side hustle, or ask for better pay. I did the latter, and I've for the most part kept up with where I wanted to be(have not checked in the last 2 years). I'm probably worth much more to other companies, but sometimes like i said, I still leave money on the table, just like I do with the rental properties. My goal was never to make the top salary for what I do.

More bullshit. I'm stuck in a low paying position. You really don't think I have drive and motivation to get out of it? Talk only about what you know and quit throwing shit like, well, a monkey. I know a lot of people in similar situations. People don't do gig work because they love it. Remember that next time you order your Doordash or Ubereats or whatever and throw in a little extra for the poor person who has to deal with you.

[Lucifer]

I forgot to mention this: I don't think that, in the richest country on the planet, people should have to work a side hustle to make a living wage. And the only reason we have to is because the money hoarders never learned how to share.

[Monkey]

OK so Lucifer has beaten me to most of my replies, although:

quit throwing shit like, well, a monkey.

Oi!

we have rich people who brag about paying their taxes because they're not douchenozzles

I said very rich and I stand by this. CEOs of huge Companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc, get away with rediculous tax avoidance. Some pay more tax than others but the big businesses always find ways to reduce the amount of tax that they should pay. I know very rich people and not one them has paid their fair share of tax. Hell, i know only slightly rich people who cleverly pay less tax than they should do.
True story: There is a football player called Ngolo Kante. He pays more tax than Apple does. No joke.

Anyway, I digress. So, summing up about kyles points that Lucifer has, mostly, responded to correctly:
You need a decent minimum wage for all jobs for all of the people that work in these jobs. You need sensible rules to ensure that the cost of living does not get out of control and so that anyone who works can afford a decent life.
Also, kyle, your idea that the cost of housing going up due to immigrants: The reason that some years ago mortgages etc went crazy was due to your bankers ******* up. They gave out mortgages all over the shop to people who couldn't afford them amongst other stuff that stupid bankers do and the market went fuckery. It even affected us here in the UK. Our house prices and mortgages are now ****** but its not really due to immigrants, as much as our right wing parties would like you to believe. Yes, OK we shouldn't be putting immigrants in hotels when we have homeless, British people living on the streets but that's another issue and it only accounts for a small number of people relative to the housing market.

Again, the best countries to live in, in Europe, follow these rules and that's why they have such a high quality of life. I've been to some of these countries myself and seen it working. An interesting note: Many Eastern European countries are now doing, or will soon be doing, better than many of the Western European countries, with Poland being set to top the charts as Europe's best country!

[Lucifer]

https://youtu.be/cw0F8G4-dMw?si=xpxoyn_-L2v44LYS

Here's john Oliver eating confederate babies or whatever you think the liberal media does.

[Z-Man]

If you're going to assert that raising minimum wage increases inflation, prove it. If you can do that, you can go get you a PhD in economics, because economists can't prove it, and they have tried really hard.

You can't prove anything in economics You can make mathematical models and then prove something in them. And there, it's rather self-evident that at the easiest approximation, raising minimum wage, provided someone is on it, and all else stays equal, increases the cost of goods, increases the costs of living, with a potential feedback loop because you typically want to adjust the minimum wage to the cost of living.
In actual practice, the effect is tiny, though. Also, automatically, not all else stays equal; if labor is more expensive, employers will use it more efficiently and organize two people to do the work three people did before. That is a general law for all resources. Make a resource more expensive, and less of it will be used.

I still think the being stuck in a low paying positions is all about drive and motivation,

Yeah, let me chime in to the chorus saying that this is not true for probably most people.

[kyle]

So I reran the prompts with grok3, it literally fixed some of the issues, like with VAT tax, it shows a much lower tax percentage now.
Started asking tax paid in Germany, then asked to compare to the US.

Calculating the exact amount an average household in Germany pays in taxes requires considering multiple tax types—income tax, value-added tax (VAT), property tax, and others—along with variables like income, household size, and consumption patterns. Since precise figures for an "average household" depend on these factors and comprehensive, up-to-date data for 2025 is not fully available, I’ll provide an informed estimate based on typical tax rates, general household income, and spending trends as of early 2025. All monetary amounts are in euros (€).
Key Assumptions

Average Household Income: According to available data, the median gross household income in Germany is around €47,000–€50,000 per year (adjusted for slight increases by 2025). For this estimate, I’ll use €49,000 as a baseline for a two-person household, a common configuration.
Household Composition: A married couple filing jointly (tax class combination III/V or IV/IV), no children, to simplify calculations.
Consumption Spending: The average household spends approximately 70–80% of its net income on goods and services subject to VAT, with the rest saved or spent on non-taxable items like rent. I’ll assume €30,000 in annual taxable consumption.
Property Ownership: Many German households rent rather than own, but for those who own, I’ll include a modest property tax estimate based on a typical apartment or small house.

1. Income Tax (Einkommensteuer)
Germany uses a progressive income tax system. For 2025, the tax-free allowance is €11,604 per person (€23,208 for a married couple filing jointly). Tax rates start at 14% and rise to 42% for income above €63,738 (single) or €127,476 (married), with a 45% "rich tax" (Reichensteuer) above €292,027 (single) or €584,054 (married). Additional surcharges include the solidarity surcharge (5.5% of income tax, phased out for most but still applicable to higher earners) and church tax (8–9% of income tax, optional).
For a gross income of €49,000:

Taxable income = €49,000 – €23,208 = €25,792.
Using the 2025 progressive rates (approximated):
First €11,604 at 0% = €0.
Next €14,188 (up to €25,792) at an average rate of ~20% = €2,838 (simplified; actual rates increase gradually).
Income Tax: ~€2,838.
Solidarity Surcharge: Phased out for this income level since 2021, so €0.
Church Tax: Assuming opt-out, €0.
Total Income Tax: €2,838.

After income tax, net income is approximately €46,162 (€49,000 – €2,838).
2. Value-Added Tax (VAT, Mehrwertsteuer)
VAT is levied on most goods and services: 19% standard rate (e.g., electronics, clothing) and 7% reduced rate (e.g., food, books). Assuming €30,000 in annual consumption:

Split: 60% at 19% (€18,000) and 40% at 7% (€12,000), reflecting typical spending patterns.
VAT at 19%: €18,000 × 0.19 = €3,420.
VAT at 7%: €12,000 × 0.07 = €840.
Total VAT: €3,420 + €840 = €4,260.

This is an indirect tax paid through purchases, not directly deducted from income.
3. Property Tax (Grundsteuer)
Property tax applies to homeowners and varies by municipality. As of January 1, 2025, Germany’s reformed property tax system bases rates on property value, land size, and municipal coefficients. For an average apartment (e.g., €300,000 value in a moderate-tax area like Berlin):

Estimated annual tax: €80–€150 (based on pre-reform data adjusted for the revenue-neutral 2025 reform).
Property Tax: €115 (midpoint estimate).

Renters don’t pay this directly, but since the question includes all taxes, I’ll assume ownership for this household.
4. Social Security Contributions
While not technically a tax, these mandatory contributions (pension, health, unemployment, long-term care) are significant. For employees, rates total ~20–22% of gross income, split with employers. For €49,000:

Employee share: ~10.5% = €5,145.
Capped at income ceilings (e.g., €58,050 for health insurance in 2025), but €49,000 is below most caps.
Total Social Security: €5,145 (employee portion).

5. Other Taxes

Real Estate Transfer Tax (Grunderwerbsteuer): 3.5–6.5% of property value, paid only on purchase (e.g., €18,000 on a €300,000 home). Amortized over 20 years = €900/year. Not all households buy annually, so I’ll exclude this from the recurring total.
Motor Vehicle Tax (Kraftfahrzeugsteuer): For a typical car, €100–€200/year. Assume €150.
TV/Radio Fee (Rundfunkbeitrag): €18.36/month = €220/year, mandatory for all households.

Total Tax Burden

Income Tax: €2,838.
VAT: €4,260.
Property Tax: €115.
Social Security: €5,145.
Motor Vehicle Tax: €150.
TV/Radio Fee: €220.
Grand Total: €12,728.

As a Percentage of Income
€12,728 ÷ €49,000 = ~26%. Including social security (often debated as a tax), it’s closer to 26% of gross income directly paid by the household, though VAT pushes the effective burden higher when consumption is factored in.
Notes

This excludes trade tax (Gewerbesteuer) or corporate taxes, which apply to businesses, not households.
Renters would see a lower total (~€12,613) without property tax.
Higher earners or larger households with children could see different totals due to tax brackets, deductions, or child benefits.

Thus, the average German household with a €49,000 income likely pays around €12,700 annually in combined taxes and contributions as of February 18, 2025, though this varies widely based on Circumstances. For a more precise figure tailored to a specific household, detailed income and spending data would be needed.

U.S. Average Household Tax Burden
Key Assumptions

Average Household Income: The U.S. Census Bureau reports median household income at approximately $74,580 (2023 data, adjusted slightly upward to $76,000 for 2025 based on inflation trends).
Household Composition: A married couple filing jointly, no children, for consistency with the German example.
Consumption Spending: Around 70–80% of net income spent on taxable goods and services, estimated at $45,000 annually.
Property Ownership: Assuming homeownership with a modest property tax, as about 66% of U.S. households own homes.

1. Federal Income Tax
The U.S. uses a progressive tax system with seven brackets for 2025 (10%, 12%, 22%, 24%, 32%, 35%, 37%). The standard deduction for married filing jointly is $30,000, and tax brackets are inflation-adjusted (per IRS Revenue Procedure 2024-40).

Gross income: $76,000.
Taxable income: $76,000 – $30,000 = $46,000.
2025 brackets for married filing jointly:
10% on first $23,850 = $2,385.
12% on next $22,150 ($46,000 – $23,850) = $2,658.
Federal Income Tax: $2,385 + $2,658 = $5,043.

Net income after federal tax: $70,957 ($76,000 – $5,043).
2. State Income Tax
State tax varies widely. The national average effective state income tax rate is about 4–5% of gross income (Tax Foundation data). For simplicity:

4.5% of $76,000 = $3,420.
State Income Tax: $3,420 (assuming no additional deductions; some states like Texas or Florida have 0%, while California exceeds 9%).

Net income after all income taxes: $67,537 ($70,957 – $3,420).
3. Sales Tax (Equivalent to VAT)
The U.S. has no federal VAT but imposes state and local sales taxes, averaging 7.12% (Tax Foundation, 2024). Assuming $45,000 in taxable consumption:

7.12% of $45,000 = $3,204.
Sales Tax: $3,204.

This is an indirect tax, not deducted from income directly.
4. Property Tax
Property taxes depend on home value and location. The national average effective rate is ~1.1% of home value (2024 data). Assuming a median home value of $375,000 (adjusted from 2023):

1.1% of $375,000 = $4,125.
Property Tax: $4,125.

Renters avoid this, but I’ll assume ownership as in the German case.
5. Social Security and Medicare (Payroll Taxes)
These are mandatory contributions:

Social Security: 6.2% on income up to $168,600 (2025 cap) = 6.2% of $76,000 = $4,712.
Medicare: 1.45% with no cap = 1.45% of $76,000 = $1,102.
Total Payroll Taxes: $4,712 + $1,102 = $5,814 (employee portion; employers pay an equal amount).

6. Other Taxes

Gasoline Tax: Federal ($0.184/gallon) plus state average ($0.31/gallon) = $0.494/gallon. At 500 gallons/year (typical), $247.
Vehicle Registration/Property Tax: Varies; assume $150/year.

Total U.S. Tax Burden

Federal Income Tax: $5,043.
State Income Tax: $3,420.
Sales Tax: $3,204.
Property Tax: $4,125.
Payroll Taxes: $5,814.
Gasoline Tax: $247.
Vehicle Tax: $150.
Grand Total: $22,003.

As a Percentage of Income
$22,003 ÷ $76,000 = ~29%.
Comparison to Germany
German Household Recap (from previous response)

Income: €49,000 (~$51,450 at €1 = $1.05, Feb 2025 exchange rate).
Total Taxes: €12,728 (~$13,364).
Percentage: ~26%.

Key Differences

Total Amount:
U.S.: $22,003.
Germany: $13,364 (~€12,728).
The U.S. household pays ~65% more in absolute terms, largely due to higher income ($76,000 vs. $51,450).
Percentage of Income:
U.S.: 29%.
Germany: 26%.
The U.S. burden is slightly higher relative to income.
Tax Composition:
Income Tax: Germany’s €2,838 (~$2,980) is lower than the U.S.’s $8,463 ($5,043 federal + $3,420 state), reflecting lower rates and brackets for this income level in Germany.
Consumption Tax: Germany’s VAT (€4,260/~$4,473) exceeds U.S. sales tax ($3,204), due to higher rates (19% vs. 7.12% average).
Property Tax: U.S. ($4,125) far exceeds Germany’s (€115/~$121), as U.S. rates are higher and homeownership is taxed more heavily.
Social Security: Germany’s €5,145 (~$5,402) is close to the U.S.’s $5,814, but Germany’s includes broader benefits (e.g., unemployment insurance).
System Design:
Germany’s higher VAT funds social services, reducing direct income tax reliance. The U.S. leans more on income and property taxes, with less emphasis on consumption taxes.
U.S. payroll taxes are narrower (Social Security/Medicare) vs. Germany’s comprehensive social contributions.

Conclusion
The average U.S. household pays more in absolute taxes ($22,003 vs. $13,364) and a slightly higher percentage of income (29% vs. 26%) than its German counterpart. However, the U.S. income is ~48% higher ($76,000 vs. $51,450), softening the relative burden. Germany’s system prioritizes consumption taxes and social contributions, while the U.S. relies more on income and property taxes. Variations (e.g., state differences in the U.S. or household size) could shift these numbers, but this reflects a typical comparison as of February 18, 2025.

[Monkey]

https://youtu.be/cw0F8G4-dMw?si=xpxoyn_-L2v44LYS

Here's john Oliver eating confederate babies or whatever you think the liberal media does.

I can't watch the video, it says:

Video unavailable
The uploader has not made this video available in your country

[Z-Man]

Kyle: Thanks, that sounds more plausible.... but I did not even read all of it, it is a bit much, and keep in mind these machine learning things are optimized for plausibility, not factual correctness

[Lucifer]

Inb4 Z-Man

https://youtu.be/nVQplt7Chos?si=rSNimLhGhjOP5TXV

It's long, but we'll worth watching the whole thing. I think it closes the book on sex and gender identity for us non biologists