Pet peeve - lag kills

[Lucifer]

Ok, so I've spent some time working on a series of moves that take advantage of lag. You can tell because I try those same moves on Hell and they don't work because my ping is too low. So I've started to depend on a medium-sized ping (you know, 125-200, what I get on Swampland).

PET PEEVE #747383948574940589405848372749

People who get killed by a solid attack and blame lag for their death. Is it so hard to believe that I intentionally put my wall there knowing you wouldn't see it until the next update from the server, by which time you'd be dead? Is it really so hard to understand the intro fake? Nemo knows about it, when he and I face off we do a little dance trying to fake the other into crashing. Don't blame the server, blame yourself for sucking!

[Tank Program]

You know, most of the time I don't complain when I die, but there really are times for example when my wall turns out to be 15 feet from where I thought it was... Is it OK to blame that on lag?

[Lucifer]

Sure, Tank. Just don't complain when I wrap a wall around you during the ping interval, unless you're complaining that I wrapped a wall around you during the ping interval.

[Jonathan]

Aaargh! Sorry, but I'm getting tired of people talking about mph and feet. What are feet in Armagetron units?

Usually I get reasonably stable updates (if I can sample a lot) on swampland with a latency of some fraction of a second (usually somewhere close to a relatively slowly changing average), but sometimes I don't get any in a few seconds, often killing me before detecting it (which is very hard). Turn submission latency is a key factor IF I manage to detect it in time (before running out of rubber) and the other player indeed blocked the way, and possibly boxed me.

(edit: there are a lot of other kinds of deadly unpredictable lag - this is of course very little of everything possible)

Also, if there are no close battles (like 'dancing' with nemo, if I survive the start) I can't make any guess about latency. It's far too unstable over a huge range. It kills me before I can determine it with any accuracy.

Sometimes if I move to the ring server after having played on swampland everything is suddenly so easy that it's not fun anymore.

Really back on topic: yes, it's possible to use lag as a weapon. I try to do it when possible and I try to avoid others trying it on me when possible.

[Tank Program]

Aaargh! Sorry, but I'm getting tired of people talking about mph and feet. What are feet in Armagetron units?

Well, cycle speed is in m/s, so I think one grid square is a meter... But I mean, it's something you sorta judge from the scaling of having seen the movie.

</ot>

[Lucifer]

Jon: it works best as a weapon when your ping is stable. My ping on swampland is usually stable, I wouldn't be surprised if yours is not stable, though. That's one of the reasons it takes me a few rounds to start rockin', if I ever manage to start anyway. While my ping in a given session is stable, it does very significantly between sessions. You'll also see me take a dip when my ping does change during a session, because I have to readjust to it.

I also realize it can be hard to tell when a player has done something like that, but there are moves where it's pretty obvious. One of my moves is to turn right in front of the guy, you know, in plain view, then immediately double-back, go a ways, then turn towards him again. His normal, natural response to the first turn is to turn away from me, round my original turn, and grind my wall. But when I double-back, I create a little U for him to drive into, which he doesn't see until its too late for his reflexes to even be an issue. I think that move is pretty obvious. Even if it's not, if it happens to you a couple of times in a row, it should become obvious that it's intentional and not accidental. And when it's not that move specifically, but a similar move, and it happens several times in a row, it should still become clear that it's not accidental. And defenses against it are harder to come up with and need to be more personalized, near as I can tell more personalized than ever before, so the more unpredictable you can be the harder it is for people to defend against it. It also moves a lot of the game from what you see to what you think might be happening, almost wanting some clairvoyance to play it properly.

What got me on this little rant was precisely that. I got a guy four times in a row using these tactics, and he said the server's lag was too bad for him and left. And he wasn't a noob either, he's a guy that's been around for as long as I can remember.

(on a different note, I've found some of the older players to have weak defenses for these kinds of tactics, so if you can't get 'em on speed, and you can't out-maze them, try throwing lag at them and see what it gets you. Doesn't work on everybody, nemo and jonathan being two of them, but it does work a lot and will get you both lots of points and lots of false lag complaints)

Of course, the other way to use lag as a weapon is to go the nuclear option, throw a bunch of turns on there and you get both a drop in other player's fps and a fair amount of extra lag. The problem there is that it's happening to you, too, but since you did it, you can compensate for it quicker than they can.

edit (in case z-man stumbles across this thread): it's also these tactics that reveal the going through walls bug the most. I don't think the 2.7.1 servers can keep up with it any easier than the players can. Anyway, I think this is one of the reasons only some of the older players are noticing that particular bug, it requires tight and fast maneuvering to occur. If your tactics are more straightforward and *gasp* doctrinal, then you don't see it because it doesn't happen to you.

[Jonathan]

Aaargh! Sorry, but I'm getting tired of people talking about mph and feet. What are feet in Armagetron units?

Well, cycle speed is in m/s, so I think one grid square is a meter...

Only 5 'meters' is quite good...

But I mean, it's something you sorta judge from the scaling of having seen the movie.

Haven't seen it.

Jon: it works best as a weapon when your ping is stable. My ping on swampland is usually stable, I wouldn't be surprised if yours is not stable, though. That's one of the reasons it takes me a few rounds to start rockin', if I ever manage to start anyway. While my ping in a given session is stable, it does very significantly between sessions. You'll also see me take a dip when my ping does change during a session, because I have to readjust to it.

My ping (as reported by the server) is fairly stable, but the connection sometimes just sucks.

I also realize it can be hard to tell when a player has done something like that, but there are moves where it's pretty obvious. One of my moves is to turn right in front of the guy, you know, in plain view, then immediately double-back, go a ways, then turn towards him again. His normal, natural response to the first turn is to turn away from me, round my original turn, and grind my wall. But when I double-back, I create a little U for him to drive into, which he doesn't see until its too late for his reflexes to even be an issue. I think that move is pretty obvious. Even if it's not, if it happens to you a couple of times in a row, it should become obvious that it's intentional and not accidental. And when it's not that move specifically, but a similar move, and it happens several times in a row, it should still become clear that it's not accidental. And defenses against it are harder to come up with and need to be more personalized, near as I can tell more personalized than ever before, so the more unpredictable you can be the harder it is for people to defend against it. It also moves a lot of the game from what you see to what you think might be happening, almost wanting some clairvoyance to play it properly.

That's the real fun.

What got me on this little rant was precisely that. I got a guy four times in a row using these tactics, and he said the server's lag was too bad for him and left. And he wasn't a noob either, he's a guy that's been around for as long as I can remember.

I agree here that lag complains are generally inappropriate.

Of course, the other way to use lag as a weapon is to go the nuclear option, throw a bunch of turns on there and you get both a drop in other player's fps and a fair amount of extra lag. The problem there is that it's happening to you, too, but since you did it, you can compensate for it quicker than they can.

That's exactly what my rlbot did. I needed to add special turn commands to be able to turn without dying 80% of the time. Normally the bot should be very easy to kill so it was amusing to see people killing themselves instead! When I demonstrated it to z-man it took the framerate of both of us down to 20 fps after I changed its behavior a bit (if you are initially close to 200 fps and the bot turns at each frame because cycle_delay=0 you die instantly because of sync problems).

[dlh]

Heres the fundamental lag kill. The hooks and stuff are more based on reaction time. If you are following someone and they do a hook, you should always 180, because thats the safest way to avoid the lag hook.

The person you are fighting is driving right along side you, and it appears he is ahead. He turns to kill you. You should immeaditly do a little adjust towards him, most likely it will catch him. This works better at higher speeds.

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[Jonathan]

Heres the fundamental lag kill. The hooks and stuff are more based on reaction time.

Depends on how much lag you get.

If you are following someone and they do a hook, you should always 180, because thats the safest way to avoid the lag hook.

Yes.

The person you are fighting is driving right along side you, and it appears he is ahead. He turns to kill you. You should immeaditly do a little adjust towards him, most likely it will catch him. This works better at higher speeds.

Probably doesn't work with my lag.

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[Phytotron]

I'm convinced that every dump anyone gives or receives in Armagetron -- every single one -- is caused by lag.

On a slightly less sarcastic comment, the main thing that annoys me is the redraw when you're battling someone close. I'm here, no wait, I'm there, no, I'm over here...crap, I'm dead. I'm not sure that should count as a "haha...I meant to do that...gotcha!"

[Lucifer]

I'm convinced that every dump anyone gives or receives in Armagetron -- every single one -- is caused by lag.

On a slightly less sarcastic comment, the main thing that annoys me is the redraw when you're battling someone close. I'm here, no wait, I'm there, no, I'm over here...crap, I'm dead. I'm not sure that should count as a "haha...I meant to do that...gotcha!"

Depends. I do a lot of tight maneuvers because I'm convinced the network code in cvs is far more stable than the network code on any earlier clients, so I figure you're more likely to suffer than I am. I do try to attack in a manner that not only confuses your brain, but your connected client as well.

But that's not all the time, it's only in a few cases, so if you crash that way, you may or may not have been the victim of that particular style of attack, when it's me, anyway.

Still, it does seem like while the cvs network code does't screw up as much, when it does it seems to take longer to correct, so I guess it all evens out.

[gss]

Ummm... what is lag?