To clear up the confusion

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destiny
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To clear up the confusion

Post by destiny »

To clear up the confusion, let me tell you why I don't post on here and on the wiki. It's the reason I don't feel welcome or comfortable here. I don't intend for this to start a heated debate, nor do I wish to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm mearly stating the reasons we are "xenophobic".

First, I added my CTF tourneys to the competition hub when I first started them, and someone deleted them. So when I expanded my tourneys, I didn't bother to post them because I figured they would just get deleted again.

Second Manta (who actually is quite good at coding stuff btw) asked to be placed on some special discussion forum for server owners and was never given the pw. I'm not totally sure what that was since he only mentioned it once and won't tell me again, but he felt like he wasn't welcome or wanted in the larger community.

Third, the regulars (in the tourneys I host) are polite and nice to me when I host the tourneys and they understand if there is some kind of delay. They also work with me when I ask them to go to a server or I tell them the rules/expectations. When I have had other people join the tourney that are not regulars, but that come from this arena they are rude to me. I get cursed out and yelled at, and many of them don't listen to directions or go where they are supposed to go, and then get mad at me cuz its taking so long.

Fourth, when I play in servers besides Wild West, I encounter harassment. Compguygene and Durka can attest to this because I was playing in the TR server when I was verbally attacked. The reason, was the person had been banned from the Wild West servers. They kept saying Wild West was all churchy and forcing their beliefs on others. That isn't true, no one is forcing any beliefs on anyone. I just want everyone to treat others with respect.

I know a lot of you don't agree with the policy on our servers, but keep in mind, they are our servers. We don't go around telling everyone how they should manage their servers and I would be nice if we got the same freedom. We do provide a few uncensored servers, but I don't want a lot of cursing/lewd talk on our main servers.

The reasons for the policy are:
* I let my students play on the servers when they finish their work as a treat and if my principal came in and saw some of the talk on them, he would not let me do that any longer.
* Some of my students play from home, and they tell their parents "Mom, this is Mrs. Destiny's game, she owns the server" I would be embarassed if a parent saw some of the conversations on there, knowing that they are our servers.
*I also have some young nephews that play and if their mother saw it, she would freak out. Seriously freak out. Like its taken years for me to convince her it's ok for her sons to play on the "dangerous internet"
*Plus, a lot of our players simply don't want to listen to that when they play. So we try to provide a family friendly, welcoming and fun atmosphere.

There are a lot of servers out there and if someone feels the need to be lewd, then they are more than welcome to go somewhere else. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't do that, I'm just asking that they don't do that on our servers. I don't understand why everyone has such a huge problem with that.

You know Manta and I have our servers and the clan and the tourneys because it's fun for us. I'm not interested in debating all of life's issues in relation to tron. I don't enjoy debates, mostly because I work with 7th graders all day long and it's a constant stream of debates all day long. I come home and really the last thing I want is to deal with a bunch of criticism from a video game. When I deal with people from the larger community, it feels like a giant criticism fest on Wild West and on me. Perhaps it's just the people I have met and not everyone is that way, but that is why I don't come and "mingle" here.

In the large scheme of things, I am relatively new to tron. Perhaps if you really want to grow tron, you should think about how you make the new people feel. This feels like it's some exclusive club and isn't very inviting to newcomers. A few people have tried to reach out, but the vast majority have not.

I hope this clears up the big mystery.

~Destiny

Split from http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?t=19059 - Tank Program

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Ok, I spent some time considering a response. I'd like to point out that I've taken personal note of Manta's shyness.... ;)
destiny wrote: First, I added my CTF tourneys to the competition hub when I first started them, and someone deleted them. So when I expanded my tourneys, I didn't bother to post them because I figured they would just get deleted again.
I couldn't find anything in the history of that page to indicate such a thing. Did you do it anonymously? I did find a solid history of spam on that page. It can be difficult to clean up a page that was spammed, especially when spammers delete content. Did you try to talk to anybody about it, or did you just quietly leave it alone?
Second Manta (who actually is quite good at coding stuff btw) asked to be placed on some special discussion forum for server owners and was never given the pw. I'm not totally sure what that was since he only mentioned it once and won't tell me again, but he felt like he wasn't welcome or wanted in the larger community.
I remember that. He asked Tank when I told him about the subforum. Several things: First, it's often necessary to ask Tank several times. :) I told Manta that at the time...... Second, there *is no password* for it. If you have access to it, you can see it in the list of subforums. You'll also see new posts made to it when you use the "View posts since last visit" feature here. Third, Manta was actively resisting posting and visiting here anyway. How useful is he going to find such a forum if he's not actually here to read it? ;)

Fourth, long enough to make a new paragraph, that particular forum was created back when we were having serious problems with people exploiting bugs in the server that made it crash. There's been one thread in it in 2009, so far, and it's tank talking about a forum spammer. There were a whopping two threads in 2008, one was luke-jr trying to get server admins to use something he just wrote (possibly unaware that's a private forum for security issues), and someone else using it as a support forum (and being spanked for it). There's 5 threads in 2006. 2005 wasn't noteably active either, but it was more active than 2006. I think the forum was created in 2004, and it was pretty active back then. I think the relative inactivity in that forum is a sign of the success of z-man's monumental effort in the 0.2.7.1 release to fix those bugs that allowed so many problems to be solved, and the continuing effort to make servers more capable of dealing with such things.

And fifth, when Manta told me he hadn't yet gotten access, I told him how to check it and he said "I'll do that sometime". I followed up on it later, and he said he hadn't done it. Has he done it yet?
Third, the regulars (in the tourneys I host) are polite and nice to me when I host the tourneys and they understand if there is some kind of delay. They also work with me when I ask them to go to a server or I tell them the rules/expectations. When I have had other people join the tourney that are not regulars, but that come from this arena they are rude to me. I get cursed out and yelled at, and many of them don't listen to directions or go where they are supposed to go, and then get mad at me cuz its taking so long.
I haven't seen this because I haven't participated in any tournaments in a long time. But I'm curious about who's doing it. It can be said that almost everyone comes from here, since most people, sooner or later, wind up registering here at one point or other. It's also easy, when a person doesn't come here often, to assume people come from here when they don't, really. Most of the regular posters here are the people I see in-game that are very polite.
Fourth, when I play in servers besides Wild West, I encounter harassment. Compguygene and Durka can attest to this because I was playing in the TR server when I was verbally attacked. The reason, was the person had been banned from the Wild West servers. They kept saying Wild West was all churchy and forcing their beliefs on others. That isn't true, no one is forcing any beliefs on anyone. I just want everyone to treat others with respect.
I completely agree with that last sentence. Unfortunately, if you become visible in any community, you will get harassed by people who don't like you, for whatever reason. If it makes you feel any better, I've been harassed on Ww servers (meaning your servers aren't free of such behavior either), and I've even been harassed in your presence and on your server and watched you do absolutely nothing about it.

For me, it comes with the territory. Besides being a pretty visible person in the community, I'm also strongly opinionated and willing to share my opinions.

As for server policies:
I know a lot of you don't agree with the policy on our servers, but keep in mind, they are our servers. We don't go around telling everyone how they should manage their servers and I would be nice if we got the same freedom.
You guys have built some fine servers. They're extremely popular, reasonably stable, and fun to play on. Whenever people disagree with your policies, you might just point out that your policies have built some of the best servers in the community. It's hard to disagree with success. ;)

But with that success, you will attract naysayers. That goes with the territory as well. Like the computer said (Was his name Joshua?), "The only way to ..." avoid naysayers ..."is not to play."

Back when I ran a server, my policies were very capricious. I couldn't post a list of policies because they depended a great deal on my mood. ;) Even so, my server was pretty popular, and most people felt comfortable playing there. It was as popular as a lag-ridden server could be, I think. And I couldn't scratch my ass without someone telling me how to make my server better and leveling the "0 player" threat if I didn't do exactly what they wanted. You know what I said? "Run your own server how you want, and we'll see who wins the popularity contest".
There are a lot of servers out there and if someone feels the need to be lewd, then they are more than welcome to go somewhere else. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't do that, I'm just asking that they don't do that on our servers. I don't understand why everyone has such a huge problem with that.
Are you sure it's everyone? :) A few vocal individuals can make it seem like everyone.

I've noticed the anti-Ww sentiment. I filed it away with the anti-CT sentiment. Whenever you're successful, you will always attract detractors. That's why they're called detractors, they're people who are attracted to success just so they can criticize it.

Whenever I've seen someone expressing anti-Ww sentiment, I ask them what the big deal is. That's mostly because I've known Manta for a long time (albeit I haven't seen him in awhile either), and I can't imagine Manta setting up a clan that would get the reputation Ww's detractors would have me believe it has. Their statements usually prove groundless, and I wind up getting flamed for not paying attention, or for not agreeing with them. I tried to satirize the Ww detractors awhile back in a post of mine. ;)

I'll end with a general request for everybody who feels like we haven't been welcoming. Can we get actual links to posts where people have been "welcomed badly"? If that sounds like a lot to ask, I'd like you to remember that I read 99.999% of the posts here within a day or two of them being made, and I've *never* seen a new member treated badly unless they committed one of the first post sins:

* Asked for help and said they were too lazy to help themselves (there's a current thread that starts that way)
* Registered and posted for the sole purpose of complaining about a server admin/moderator
* Registered and posted for the sole purpose of complaining about how buggy the game is, but wouldn't give an actual bug report
* Wrote an unlegible post

There might be a few others.

But you also need to consider that we get so many posts from people who make one post and then are never heard from again that while we try to be welcoming to a first poster, we don't put a lot of energy into trying to roll out the red carpet or anything. You get out of these forums exactly what you put into them. To be quite honest, if we were even half as hostile as we are commonly credited with, membership here wouldn't keep growing, our IRC channel would be shrinking (it's growing, slowly, but growing), and the player count would also be shrinking. I don't believe we are hostile, and after reading all these posts saying we are, I'd like to see some evidence.

Destiny: I'm fully expecting you to read my last paragraph and decide it's not worth it to provide such evidence. Therefore, I'm fully expecting for us to just disagree on the subject. That's what usually happens when I ask for evidence. :)
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Post by Z-Man »

First, the short version: don't let some assholes stop you from doing what you feel is right. And especially, don't let them stop you from posting here. As with all public forums, you should not forget to wear your flameproof underwear, but usually, people flaming other people for no reason get roasted themselves.
destiny wrote:First, I added my CTF tourneys to the competition hub when I first started them, and someone deleted them. So when I expanded my tourneys, I didn't bother to post them because I figured they would just get deleted again.
Hmm, can you point us to the revisions in question? I could not find them. Right off the bat, I see no reason any competition open to all shouldn't be on the hub, so the deletion would be an abuse and, if reported, would have lead to a swift ban of the offender. (probably not now, because bans on the wiki are largely an educational punishment and are ineffective at that if they don't follow the offense quickly)
destiny wrote:Second Manta (who actually is quite good at coding stuff btw) asked to be placed on some special discussion forum for server owners and was never given the pw. I'm not totally sure what that was since he only mentioned it once and won't tell me again, but he felt like he wasn't welcome or wanted in the larger community.
Hmm, maybe Tank just forgot or needed proof Manta indeed was a server admin? The server admins only forum is for security relevant discussions mostly, so we need to be extra sure people able to read it are trustworthy. No worries, there hasn't been a single post there in quite a while, so you're not missing much. I'd say your admin staff would qualify with all the servers you're running
destiny wrote:When I have had other people join the tourney that are not regulars, but that come from this arena they are rude to me. I get cursed out and yelled at, and many of them don't listen to directions or go where they are supposed to go, and then get mad at me cuz its taking so long.
Simple solution: disqualify them on the spot. Really. Not following the orders of the tournament organizer is plenty of reason.
destiny wrote:Fourth, when I play in servers besides Wild West, I encounter harassment. Compguygene and Durka can attest to this because I was playing in the TR server when I was verbally attacked. The reason, was the person had been banned from the Wild West servers. They kept saying Wild West was all churchy and forcing their beliefs on others. That isn't true, no one is forcing any beliefs on anyone. I just want everyone to treat others with respect.
Ah, there we get to the core of the problem. See, a large part of the people playing are adolescents. As nature has it, many of them think foul language is a manly man thing and they use it a lot. They may not be the majority, but they certainly are very vocal. Your server policies obviously are in conflict with that group. That naturally gives you some heat when you leave the protection of your own servers. I'd suggest you just ignore the little bastards (silencing helps) when ingame. Here on the forums, as already said, you can feel reasonably safe from them. Official forum policy is to keep the language family friendly, too, and people generally stick to it.

And yes, our official policy also is that server admins can do with their servers precisely what they want.

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Post by Lucifer »

Z-Man wrote:Hmm, maybe Tank just forgot or needed proof Manta indeed was a server admin?
Thanks for mentioning this, now I'm remembering Tank asking me in IRC if I knew who Manta was, and me vouching for Manta. Now I'm really curious if Tank gave Manta access to that forum right then. ;)
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Post by Tank Program »

destiny wrote:Second Manta (who actually is quite good at coding stuff btw) asked to be placed on some special discussion forum for server owners and was never given the pw. I'm not totally sure what that was since he only mentioned it once and won't tell me again, but he felt like he wasn't welcome or wanted in the larger community.
I forgot. At least, I'm pretty sure I forgot. Sorry Manta.

Using Armagetron in the classroom is great. I first learned about it in a similar environment and it's shaped my life. I entirely understand your wish to keep the servers as I would call "family friendly" and I've got nothing against it.

About us being mean and evil and driving new people away here. I think we may have just gotten a bad reputation. That we're nice and cuddly may be the biggest kept secret out there. It's like in a book there's often a character that's large and clumsy, often doing the wrong thing, but he really has best interests at heart and he's just misunderstood.
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Post by Monkey.D.Luffy »

Whenever you're successful, you will always attract detractors.
100% agree ;)

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Post by DDMJ »

destiny wrote:First, I added my CTF tourneys to the competition hub when I first started them, and someone deleted them. So when I expanded my tourneys, I didn't bother to post them because I figured they would just get deleted again.
I checked thru the history too and didn't see it. It would be nice to advertise your tournaments to everyone. I'm sure they will grow a lot faster...but that brings me to this point:
destiny wrote:When I have had other people join the tourney that are not regulars, but that come from this arena they are rude to me. I get cursed out and yelled at, and many of them don't listen to directions or go where they are supposed to go, and then get mad at me cuz its taking so long.
For the people that don't know what happened, I'll provide a little summary: In the last tournament that Destiny hosted, she wrote on the WW forums that it was supposed to start at 5pm EST. Naturally, everyone showed up around 4:45, looking for Destiny to tell everyone which servers to go to. One of these teams were CT and it was CT's first time participating in one of the WW tourneys. CT has participated in tons of Ladles. The Ladle prides itself on being self-organized, which is why it's so successful and usually is run on time with little confusion. The problem was that Destiny meant to post that the tournament started at 6pm EST, so she didn't end up showing up until 5:20. She thought "perfect, I have 40 minutes until the tournament starts to get things organized," but everyone else was pissed because she was actually 20 minutes late, not 40 minutes early. Some CT members voiced their frustration, explaining how self-organized tournaments like the Ladle are superior because things like this wouldn't generally happen.

I guess the thing that people don't understand is that Destiny truly does run these tournaments on her own. The only criticism I have is that the brackets always seem to be a mystery. Destiny, maybe if you posted them on the forums before the tournament starts, it won't be such a mystery and people will know where to go, rather than having to all gather in the spam-ridden Lounge server.
destiny wrote:Fourth, when I play in servers besides Wild West, I encounter harassment. Compguygene and Durka can attest to this because I was playing in the TR server when I was verbally attacked. The reason, was the person had been banned from the Wild West servers. They kept saying Wild West was all churchy and forcing their beliefs on others. That isn't true, no one is forcing any beliefs on anyone. I just want everyone to treat others with respect.
I saw it. The people harassing you were the ones that have been repeatedly banned from the WW servers for swearing...but then you started to egg them on by verbally attacking them too, albeit in a joking nature. But that's what those guys like, they never really mean anything by what they say, it's all fun 'n games in their mind and so when you started talking trash to them, they then felt their actions were justified. As someone earlier posted, just ignore them if you don't want these conflicts to arise.

Finally, please remember this:
Lackadaisical wrote:
Bill Cosby wrote:I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

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Re: To clear up the confusion

Post by sinewav »

BTW, welcome to the ArmagetronAd forums. :)

I was really struck by something you said:
destiny wrote:* Some of my students play from home, and they tell their parents "Mom, this is Mrs. Destiny's game, she owns the server" I would be embarassed if a parent saw some of the conversations on there, knowing that they are our servers.
*I also have some young nephews that play and if their mother saw it, she would freak out. Seriously freak out. Like its taken years for me to convince her it's ok for her sons to play on the "dangerous internet"
I'm glad I read that. Your motives are much more personal/intimate and less ideological than I first imagined. I think I understand you a lot better thanks to this post of yours. I'm sorry I have given you such a hard time in the past. I'll try to chill out more. Even though I have an confrontational personality I try not to argue ad hominem... but sometimes I fail. Sorry for that.

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Re: To clear up the confusion

Post by -=VcL.Rajinn »

sinewav wrote:BTW, welcome to the ArmagetronAd forums. :)

I was really struck by something you said:
destiny wrote:* Some of my students play from home, and they tell their parents "Mom, this is Mrs. Destiny's game, she owns the server" I would be embarassed if a parent saw some of the conversations on there, knowing that they are our servers.
*I also have some young nephews that play and if their mother saw it, she would freak out. Seriously freak out. Like its taken years for me to convince her it's ok for her sons to play on the "dangerous internet"
I'm glad I read that. Your motives are much more personal/intimate and less ideological than I first imagined. I think I understand you a lot better thanks to this post of yours. I'm sorry I have given you such a hard time in the past. I'll try to chill out more. Even though I have an confrontational personality I try not to argue ad hominem... but sometimes I fail. Sorry for that.
What sine.wav said ^^

I thought you were just being a control freak :?
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Post by destiny »

Wow guys :) Compguygene was right, I should have listened to him and posted here earlier. I do feel a lot more welcome now that I read all of your responses.

***warning long post b/c i was responding to everyone***

I did post the tourneys on the competition hub anonymously, simply because at the time, I had no clue how to sign up for it. I finally came across a post giving instructions about the cycles. I'm sure that is why they were deleted now that I know the way you guys work it.

Also knowing manta, he probably gave up because he is so shy and got the idea that he wasn't wanted. It sounds like he should have been more proactive if he wanted to join. He does read this forum often, but rarely posts. to be honest, he rarely posts on wild west forums too. he usually has me tell the people what he said. (lol i'll be in trouble for that comment when he reads this)

I guess the unwelcoming impression I had of this community (or what i perceived to be this community), wasn't so much from posts here, as much as it was from the way people represented themselves on our forum and also in the servers, like when we played in the ladle. I think also, I probably thought some of the distractors were part of this community. But now my impression is that they are probably doing the same thing here also, and aren't really a part of this community either.

I also think that perhaps, since I am a woman, I do take things more personally/emotionally. So when I encounter the anti-Ww sentiment, I took it personal. Also, I really had the impression that this forum and/or community was like "the men's club" and that in some ways Wild West wasn't welcome here largely because they had a woman for a leader. But I feel differently about all of you now.

Sine I'm really glad you posted, because you were one of the reasons I shyed away from this forum. I thought everyone was opinionated like you :P /me takes the olive branch of peace you offered and shakes your hand.

LoL Code :P i'm not a control freak at all actually. i'm pretty easy going for the most part. the only time i go into rambo mode, is when i feel threatened or like a mother cheetah, when my cubs (clan/servers/forum) are threatened. /me also takes your olive branch of peace and gives you a hug and says friends again?

Durka, I hate you too, j/k <3 (i did see your comment i was defending at the time) I have been posting the brackets lately. I put them up along with a check in poll, so that I can see who is actually showing up. I listened to you and quit having everyone meet in the lounge, since that was chaos.

And yes the Wild fort tourney was a disaster, IDK why I put 5 pm est, i always have my tourneys at 6 pm EST. It wasn't just that tourney tho, there were others when I was there and trying to tell everyone where to go, and they didn't listen, and also after a match they didn't move to the next server then complained that it took so long. The tourneys have been getting much smoother, because more and more people know the routine now, and more people have been speaking up to help everyone transition.

Lucifer I do remember that incident you were talking about. You are right, I didn't do anything about it in the main chat. The reason was I was talking to people in PM, trying to figure out if you were the real Lucifer, or if you were an imposter. I was told you were an imposter because they said the real Lucifer didn't play and that if he did, he wouldn't be playing on the Wild West servers. Also at the time we had people impostering all the main old school tronners, so it was very plausible. I apologize for not being more active in kicking them and stopping the roasting. I know a lot more about server admin commands and checking the IP is a great way to know if its an imposter, something I didn't know then. (manta says hi btw)

Z-man and Tank, thank you for making me feel welcome, and thank you for developing this game. i really enjoy all the aspects of it.

oh and Lucifer, i need some help on server design and i'm too lazy to do it myself... j/k

actually tho, i do have a question and i have searched these forums and i'm not real sure on how to do a couple of things and my husband won't help me because he is being stubborn and making me learn it myself.

i want to add some maps to my ctf wilderness game mode. i tried to d/l armabell, but i have vista and i don't think it works correctly, it gave me a pop up message saying "armabellv0.0.7 requires xp and servicepack 2"
i went ahead and clicked cancel and opened the program anyway and i got a large blue screen with dots. is that the way its supposed to look? and what are the value of the dots? i played around with it a bit and was able to make walls, but idk how long they are. when i write the code myself to make a wall i know how long it is because i plot the points, but i don't see X and Y values with armabell.

the other question i have, is how do i do moving zones? i know they are not written into the public map, but only on the server. but what to i type in the code when i make, for example a deathzone, if i want it to move along a prescribed path? i know our servers support it b/c manta has them in wild fort, i just don't know how to code it.

(also keep in mind when you explain this to me that i'm a server designer noobie in training)

oh and i do have an idea for a story line mode if you really did want to try to sell tron to like EA or something. i remember reading something along those lines in your april fool's day joke.


Thanks again for making me feel welcome here :)

I will post my tourneys to the wiki soon.

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Post by -=VcL.Rajinn »

Yesh, kim, we will always be friends amigA (thanks dOrka for the correction -.-).

About armabell, if you right click (if i remember right) you will see options come up where you can insert win zones, death zones, squares, circles, etc. this is setting up the map for you, but i will let someone else that used the program recently explain it further to you. I only played with it a bit, but had no need to create a map (ever)
Last edited by -=VcL.Rajinn on Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DDMJ »

-=VcL.Rajinn wrote:Yesh, kim, we will always be friends amigo.
amiga*

SCNR

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Post by Tank Program »

I'm very glad that you've posted again and that our 'evil' impression has been dispelled. (Wow was that an awkward sentence. Couldn't think of a better way to say it.)

About the moving zones, if manta already has the styball patch applied and setup, that's half the battle. I'm not sure about the specific details of moving the death zone though. That may require another code hack.

Edit: Just saw this thread. That may be of interest, if a bit technical.
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Post by owned »

Yeah I'm pretty sure that some of our programmers are experienced in moving zones. (ed, voodoo, ky13) So if you see them just ask.

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