Hosting Dillemas

[Luke-Jr]

So this guy started hosting services with me back in October of '06. He decided to pre-pay for 5 months. We are now into the 9th month of his hosting, and he is 4 months late on payment and claiming that he was paying 5 months one-off, not to be continued beyond that. Nevertheless, he never informed me of this, and has even said things to imply otherwise a number of times. Also, standard practice for anyone providing hosting services is to continue service until there is an explicit cancellation, and this is also clearly written out in my policy:

Cancellation is only considered in effect when we are notified: if you wait 2 months to tell us, expect to pay for those 2 months.

His statements implying hosting beyond 5 months:

i am not working
and the next pay cheque will probably be the end of february
so i am talking about forking out 5 months

Since he won't have money again until Feb, this is the origin of the 5 months prepayment; note that he clearly intends to continue paying/hosting after the 5 months.

sure
luke-jr

um
haven't made use of the server much...
maybe we can think of a use....?

thanks for the offer
and i look forward to the
new package

thanks
____


On Mar 19, 2007, at 19:42, Luke -Jr wrote:

Dear customer,

To thank you for being our customer, I'm offering you a free 2 week upgrade to the next Armagetron hosting package! All you need to do is let me know when you'd like to start your two weeks.

Enjoy,

Luke

P.S. Offer expires May 1st or when resources run out, whichever is first.

Note this is 16 days after the 5 months pre-paid was over. At this point, he is late paying for 1 month already, and clearly acknowleges the continued hosting services.

thanks

____

On May 8, 2007, at 15:28, Luke -Jr wrote:

The datacenter my Europe server is located is has some planned maintenance on the 9th. It's possible that as a result the server may be down for up to 10 hours at some point.

Here again, in the 3rd month after the initial 5 months, he acknowleges the hosting services. Still no mention of cancellation or "OMG why is it still up" of any sort.

He is also claiming that he should not need to pay since he supposedly did not use it during this time, and only someone else was using it (whom he had given his ADMIN_PASS to).


So am I supposed to have read his mind and figured out that he wanted to cancel after the first 5 months? Should I monitor servers I host and terminate them when the owner doesn't connect every week? Am I responsible for just eating the $80 loss of running his server when he made no effort to inform me that he wished to cancel until just recently?

[Luke-Jr]

And this is the conversation I just had with him that prompted posting this thread. Names removed to protect the innocent and guilty... :p

[12:24:21] <happyseaurchin> boo
[12:24:46] <happyseaurchin> i just realised that perhaps you haven't received my email...
[12:25:17] <luke-jr> no, I haven't got an email from you in a long time
[12:25:44] <happyseaurchin> sorry... i haven't done outgoing from my client beause moving house etc
[12:25:57] <happyseaurchin> and i wrote one to you thinking i'd get online sometime and send it....
[12:26:03] <happyseaurchin> give me a mo
[12:27:08] <luke-jr> your hosting is currently 4 months late, so I'd really like to figure out what's happening before Jul 2 which ends that 4th month
[12:28:59] <happyseaurchin> hmmm.... odd... i can't find the email either in my sent folder or in the folder i was going to send
[12:29:15] <happyseaurchin> but i distinctly remember receiving an email from you which was irate...
[12:30:00] <luke-jr> the one I sent was on 2007-06-03
[12:30:05] <happyseaurchin> aha:
[12:30:08] <happyseaurchin> i paid in advance for a few months
[12:30:08] <happyseaurchin> Right, from Oct '06 to March '06...
[12:30:37] <happyseaurchin> it was a pm through the forum...
[12:30:51] <luke-jr> ah, right
[12:32:15] <happyseaurchin> so.... i don't think i got a message back from you... is everything ok?
[12:32:27] <happyseaurchin> i do apologise for the misunderstanding....
[12:33:11] <happyseaurchin> i did try to make it clear i paid up front for months because i wouldn't have made any money for months... and i have only worked for 2months this year so far.... so paying for a server is.... well.... tricky....
[12:36:35] <luke-jr> hm, I sent one, but I can't find it in my Sent... maybe it didn't go thru
[12:37:13] <luke-jr> Continuing a hosting service is pretty much assumed in every case-- imagine the annoyance of people if they had to say month after month "yes I want to keep hosting"
[12:38:13] <luke-jr> also, my policy states that I need a clear request to cancel service
[12:38:40] <luke-jr> hence why it is still running now, even after those PMs (which were already in this same service month anyway)...
[12:39:39] <happyseaurchin> o man...
[12:39:40] <luke-jr> so to start off, please let me know if you would like to cancel now, or if you would prefer to try to find a way to keep it up
[12:39:47] <happyseaurchin> i can't
[12:39:57] <happyseaurchin> and as you may have seen... i haven't used it...
[12:40:06] <happyseaurchin> we did the incam there beause it was available...
[12:40:15] * luke-jr doesn't monitor players in servers :p
[12:40:18] <happyseaurchin> and ____ made more use of it than me
[12:40:22] <happyseaurchin> fair enough
[12:40:30] <luke-jr> ok, so you want to cancel?
[12:40:36] <happyseaurchin> well... yes
[12:40:38] <luke-jr> ok
[12:40:58] <happyseaurchin> and my understanding was not to continue... i don't remember that bit being agreed....
[12:41:20] <happyseaurchin> did you assume one thing and i another...?
[12:41:47] <luke-jr> like I said, all services generally assume service continues on until explicitly cancelled
[12:42:21] <happyseaurchin> assume...
[12:42:37] <happyseaurchin> have you had this problem before?
[12:42:41] <luke-jr> nope
[12:42:44] <luke-jr> that's every service provider on the net, not just me, note
[12:42:52] <luke-jr> web hosting, email hosting, other game hosting, etc
[12:43:09] <luke-jr> nobody assumes a finite period of hosting
[12:43:43] <happyseaurchin> not true... i have to pay website provider every 3 months...
[12:43:54] <happyseaurchin> and i am reminded
[12:44:06] <happyseaurchin> if i dont pay, they just cut service
[12:44:34] <happyseaurchin> luckily i know them, so it's cool
[12:45:07] <luke-jr> true, I am more lenient and don't force people to prepay or such
[12:45:18] <luke-jr> but that is another matter entirely, imo
[12:46:01] <luke-jr> "if i dont pay, the just cut service" is not the correct way to terminate any services
[12:46:12] <luke-jr> it's like quitting a job without giving 2 weeks notice
[12:47:00] <luke-jr> actually
[12:47:09] <happyseaurchin> by paying up front, i agreed to give 5months notice...
[12:47:12] <luke-jr> it's more like just not showing up for a full-time job
[12:47:12] <happyseaurchin> inho
[12:47:15] <happyseaurchin> imho
[12:47:26] <happyseaurchin> that i have never done....
[12:47:29] <luke-jr> I wasn't aware of your intention to cancel after 5 months
[12:47:30] <happyseaurchin> i honour my word
[12:48:03] <happyseaurchin> look luke-jr , are you out of pocket or not?
[12:48:06] <luke-jr> also, after the 5 months you wrote me an email implying that you did want to continue the hosting
[12:48:49] <happyseaurchin> i did?
[12:48:52] <happyseaurchin> ah good
[12:49:02] <happyseaurchin> hehehe
[12:49:06] <luke-jr> yes, I fund my hosting stuff out of pocket; right now, there are 2 servers, including yours, that I have been paying for entirely
[12:49:17] <happyseaurchin> that was uncharacteristically thoughtful of me
[12:49:27] <happyseaurchin> o dear
[12:49:50] <luke-jr> sure - luke-jr - um
[12:49:50] <luke-jr> haven't made use of the server much...
[12:49:50] <luke-jr> maybe we can think of a use....?
[12:49:50] <luke-jr> thanks for the offer - and i look forward to the
[12:49:50] <luke-jr> new package - thanks
[12:49:51] <luke-jr> ____
[12:50:15] <luke-jr> then in May, "thanks - ____" in response to planned maintenance on the server
[12:50:21] <happyseaurchin> yes... because you prompted me with a 2 week thing...
[12:50:40] <luke-jr> nothing about "I wasn't going to continue hosting; my server shouldn't still be up"
[12:50:45] <happyseaurchin> and then i got surprised by the maintenance and thought it was an automatic thing...
[12:51:01] <happyseaurchin> i just thought you had it there because there was no loss to you...
[12:51:35] * luke-jr doesn't have any automatic emails at the moment :p
[12:51:36] <happyseaurchin> like, you rent the server, and rather than take it off (which was my assumption), you'd might as well leave it up until someone else wants the server-allocation
[12:52:21] <luke-jr> in most cases, the servers are dedicated to a single Arma server
[12:52:27] <happyseaurchin> this looks like misunderstanding to me....
[12:52:32] <luke-jr> I guess
[12:52:33] <happyseaurchin> so... what do we do about it?
[12:52:44] <luke-jr> I don't know
[12:53:43] <happyseaurchin> hmmm... i should be working from sept... new job... i hope to get the school server to host the game, but i might not...
[12:53:55] <happyseaurchin> there may be possibilities there...
[12:54:07] <happyseaurchin> how much was/is it?
[12:54:40] <luke-jr> $80 total for the 4 months
[12:55:19] <happyseaurchin> no... i mean.. ok $20/month
[12:57:11] <luke-jr> I can drop that to $75 without taking a loss
[12:57:59] <happyseaurchin> luke-jr: based on assumptions...
[12:58:03] <luke-jr> ?
[12:58:06] <happyseaurchin> based on what we've just talked about...
[12:58:24] <happyseaurchin> how on earth do you think i am solely responsible for our miscommunication....?
[12:58:34] <luke-jr> ...
[12:58:58] <happyseaurchin> i was suggesting something for the future...
[12:59:10] <luke-jr> everything I was told seemed to fit exactly within the standard hosting assumption of continual service
[12:59:33] <happyseaurchin> again: assumption... we will get annoyed if we just repeat ourselves....
[12:59:43] <happyseaurchin> make sure you are planning a way out of this mess....
[12:59:58] <luke-jr> ok, fine, I'll use a word other than assumption
[12:59:59] <luke-jr> policy
[13:00:05] <happyseaurchin> i mean, think about....
[13:00:06] <happyseaurchin> ?
[13:00:51] <luke-jr> "Cancellation is only considered in effect when we are notified: if you wait 2 months to tell us, expect to pay for those 2 months."
[13:01:17] <happyseaurchin> think about my position... i spend $100, i use it for a few months... let others take control and it becomes derelict for about 3... and then i am meant to spend another $80 because of assumptions and unclear email, pm's etc
[13:01:30] <happyseaurchin> $180 for maybe 2 months use....
[13:01:44] * happyseaurchin shakes his head and laughs
[13:01:45] <happyseaurchin> no
[13:01:49] <luke-jr> I did not make the decision to hand control off to others
[13:01:51] <happyseaurchin> no sense
[13:02:10] <happyseaurchin> no.. i wasn't using it... ____ had some scheme or other...
[13:02:23] <luke-jr> I did not make the decision to not inform me of a desire to cancel
[13:02:27] <happyseaurchin> it was there, and it had some kind of use... but i would have lost nothing had it gone...
[13:02:40] <happyseaurchin> i did not inform you.... i did not pay you!
[13:02:44] <happyseaurchin> for crying out loud
[13:02:49] <happyseaurchin> how about that for notification!
[13:02:52] <happyseaurchin> gads
[13:03:06] <luke-jr> that is easily and very often a mistake
[13:03:14] <happyseaurchin> right... i am going to make this discussion public, and see what others think
[13:03:37] <happyseaurchin> yes, actually, it is, in my case... but don't base your business on my mistakes...
[13:03:56] <happyseaurchin> have some kind of procedure to remind people...
[13:04:01] <happyseaurchin> you seem very upfront now
[13:04:11] <happyseaurchin> why weren't you like this 4 months back?
[13:04:32] <happyseaurchin> instead of a rather ambiguous pm/email combo
[13:04:52] <happyseaurchin> i don't know what you do luke, but be reasonable
[13:05:13] <luke-jr> 4 months back, I was in no immediate need of being reimbursed
[13:05:38] <luke-jr> and I could afford to wait for late payments
[13:06:15] <happyseaurchin> what's your proposal?
[13:07:35] <luke-jr> well, preferably you would pay for the hosting you've had (whether you used it or not, I provided the service)
[13:07:42] <luke-jr> obviously, if you have no money, that's not a possibility
[13:07:45] <happyseaurchin> think ahead.... give me something reasonable...
[13:07:52] <luke-jr> so please suggest something
[13:08:06] <happyseaurchin> if i had easy money, i'd pay obviously... i don't
[13:08:10] <happyseaurchin> i have...
[13:08:29] <happyseaurchin> i didn't have any problems with you... and your service
[13:08:34] <happyseaurchin> i could use you again
[13:08:43] <luke-jr> I can understand the whole financial thing; I have been myself in similar situations, including probably in a few weeks
[13:09:05] <happyseaurchin> sorry to hear it...
[13:09:15] <luke-jr> I just have no ideas how to proceed at the moment, so I'm asking if you have any
[13:09:16] <happyseaurchin> hmmm... do you servie the servers remotely...?
[13:09:23] <luke-jr> yes
[13:09:25] <luke-jr> my home ISP sucks
[13:09:29] <luke-jr> I couldn't host anything here
[13:09:49] <happyseaurchin> i mean, if you had a server in a school... do you fiddle about with it over the net?
[13:10:20] <luke-jr> actually, they're at big datacenters
snip ____ going off on a tangent about trying to get free hosting from schools
[13:16:24] <luke-jr> well, good luck with that; in the meantime, got any ideas on how we can handle the $75?
snip more tangent
[13:20:32] <happyseaurchin> so... i suggest we keep things open in the future... possible collaborations... possible rent of another server which might be private and only schools can access that kind of thing
[13:21:41] <happyseaurchin> the money... well... only in the future if we are clear
[13:21:49] <luke-jr> ...
[13:22:24] <happyseaurchin> i gotta get on with stuff...
[13:22:24] <luke-jr> I hope you're not expecting me to just eat the $75 you owe
[13:22:40] <happyseaurchin> so... you hold to me owing you money?
[13:23:24] <luke-jr> certainly; want me to review the evidence again?
[13:24:20] <luke-jr> standard hosting practice everywhere: unless explicitly cancelled, service continues
[13:24:29] <happyseaurchin> right... ok.... could you post this irc log on the forum, perhaps suggesting that there is a decision to be made, since i would like to hear how others deal with it
[13:24:50] <luke-jr> you made no attempt to mention a cancellation, not even in March or May after the initial 5 months had been completed
[13:25:04] <luke-jr> when you emailed me about the server
[13:25:33] <luke-jr> do you want me to keep you anonymous?
[13:26:28] <happyseaurchin> of course not
[13:26:55] <happyseaurchin> not that i think anyone will be interested enough to read...
[13:27:21] <happyseaurchin> i have hardly enough interest.... quite frankly it is absurd
[13:27:42] <luke-jr> it's absurd only that you refuse to pay for services I provided
[13:28:10] <happyseaurchin> it is absurd you provided services given the miscommunication and lack of funds
[13:28:21] <luke-jr> the miscommunication was your own fault
[13:28:41] <happyseaurchin> aha.... the root of it all... you think communication problems are located in one side or the other...
[13:28:55] <happyseaurchin> when in fact, it is something which exists between two people....
[13:28:59] <luke-jr> you failed to cancel the service
[13:29:04] <luke-jr> that is not my fault
[13:29:12] <happyseaurchin> if we can't sort this out like gentlement
[13:29:17] <happyseaurchin> i did a one off payment
[13:29:19] <happyseaurchin> hehehe
[13:29:20] <happyseaurchin> that was it
[13:29:27] <happyseaurchin> no monthly blaaa bnlaaa blaaa
[13:29:29] <happyseaurchin> no contract
[13:29:33] <happyseaurchin> i one off....
[13:29:35] <happyseaurchin> so....
[13:29:57] <happyseaurchin> i've had enough.... post the log and let's see what others might be able to say... to arbitrate...
[13:31:18] <-- happyseaurchin has left this channel.

[Lucifer]

Ok, arbitration.

1. Cut him off.
2. If you want to blame him, fine, you've lost a customer.
3. If you feel bad for losing a customer, you've learned something. Hopefully you've learned that trying to toss blame around is not an effective way to solve problems.
4. He's saying it was a one-off payment, so you decide for yourself if he owes you the extra money and if he wants to get service with you again, you decide whether or not to forgive him the owed money at that time.
5. But why bother listening to me? I've been saying this stuff for a long time and you haven't listened so far....

[root down]

petition your congressman.

[Rain]

i will not vote in the poll because i do not think this should got as a tribunal, and polls could be deviant and confusing.

here my opinions:

happyseaurchin: if you rent a car and then you lose the control of it or you are not more interested to keep the rent, you have to tell who rent you it. always read policy before ask to start a service. you are actually lucky we are talking about a server for a game, about 75$ and about luke. otherwise any company would have started a legal procedur in a similar case.

luke: i suggest to make the services active only after the payment is recived. this is a clearer and safer way for both parts. also you could use paypal or other forms of automation to simplify money tranfer.

[Luke-Jr]

i will not vote in the poll because i do not think this should got as a tribunal, and polls could be deviant and confusing.

The result of the poll serves for one purpose: to make it clear to both ____ and I what the majority of people think of such a situation. Hopefully ____ will see the results and understand that he can't just pass the blame on me and that it really is his fault. I don't expect him to pay me right away, but I do expect him to work with me on resolving this.

[Lucifer]

i will not vote in the poll because i do not think this should got as a tribunal, and polls could be deviant and confusing.

The result of the poll serves for one purpose: to make it clear to both ____ and I what the majority of people think of such a situation. Hopefully ____ will see the results and understand that he can't just pass the blame on me and that it really is his fault. I don't expect him to pay me right away, but I do expect him to work with me on resolving this.

The poll is flawed. There's no "no" option.

[Luke-Jr]

The poll is flawed. There's no "no" option.

Are you blind?

[nitus]

You communicated with him several times after his lease had expired, yet you never informed him that he was past due?

It looks as though you deliberately chose not to inform him or to warn him, and instead put out "feeler" notices, in the hope that he would continue to use the server and rack up bills.

I'd say that was somewhat dubious behavior on your part, and that the guy should get off free - except for this:

Cancellation is only considered in effect when we are notified: if you wait 2 months to tell us, expect to pay for those 2 months.

If he signed anything that could stand up as proving that he agreed with your TOS, he'll have to pay. If he didn't, then it's your word against his, and you made no effort to tell him that his time had expired.