feedforward: the tronic experiment

[2020]

a year ago
they said it could not happen:
we could not trust players

a year on
we have had 12 tournaments
self-organised

the principle has been proven

what i would like to do now
is move on in terms of the discussion
to avoid the age-old arguments whether it can work or not
or compare it to meat-side tournaments

since it works
all we need to do now
is improve it

there are two major problems that keep on resurfacing
and i would like us to have the balls to suggest ideal solutions...

1
same players
not enough new blood...
the skill level between noobs and addicts is vast
and intimidating
we need ways of introducing more players to the game

2
game-interruptions by new players joining the server
although several solutions have been promoted
we want one which attracts spectators and not exlcudes them

we
as players
have to think system-wise and socially-respectful and future-proof
think deep
gentlemen
so we may avoid the shallow tet-a-tet which has prevented us from promoting a solid request to the development team...

[Rain]

this is the reply to the point 1:

we
as players
have to think system-wise and socially-respectful and future-proof
think deep
gentlemen

and i think there is nothing to say more about it.

this is the reply to the point 2:
password to access a team. so you are spectator until you give the right pass when you ask to join a team. this also avoid from confusion between teams (like players switching from one to another) and it is less distractive to players who play. also i think spectators should not be able to talk, but this is already possible i think, no code modification needed.

[epsy]

well, i have some ideas...just let me 2 months i learn C++

[newbie]

after so many events in the last year the distinction between tournament game and regular game became quite noticeable

for me the regular game became even a little bit boring to the point where i see myself more often not coredumping players, when I should, just to have some more fun; and this hurts your grid aggression

anyway back to the point, Ladle IMHO should achieve more clarity, some rigid rules and maybe small change in the match organization

[philippeqc]

2020:
About 1.
What about class? light-weight, medium-weight and heavy-weight. There must be some sport that are organized in such a matter where you could draw from their system. Something in the form of "If your win average raise over x for a maintained period, you are promoted to the next class".

This way, new players have a chance by competing agains similar skilled players, and have an added motivation to improve themself and join the higher ranks.

A side comment, aren't you already blocked in your tournament sizes as you need to pass from 32 players to 64 (ie: if you already have 32 entries, you have to let wait the 31 next entries) ? By breaking down by class, you get the quick growth gain again.

Epsy:
http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopi ... 401#168401
Hopefully with a framework like this, each desired behavior would be pushed to a ruby script.

[2020]

2020:
About 1.
What about class? light-weight, medium-weight and heavy-weight. [...]This way, new players have a chance by competing agains similar skilled players, and have an added motivation to improve themself and join the higher ranks.

sounds good
if there were enough players

i think there is a bottleneck wrt to new players
and this is not at the monthly competition stage
but at the initial entry into regular games stage...

we have to start thinking proactively about recruitment
and not just good players reforming new clans...
vanhayes' original idea of breaking up the anarchic wanderers after the third(?) ladle
was intended for individuals to go recruiting...
damned hard...
i needed help in being able to establish a team
(still do!)

A side comment, aren't you already blocked in your tournament sizes as you need to pass from 32 players to 64 (ie: if you already have 32 entries, you have to let wait the 31 next entries) ? By breaking down by class, you get the quick growth gain again.

agreed
though the system is meant to be expandable
the first round should be the only round which contains byes

[MaZuffeR]

1
same players
not enough new blood...
the skill level between noobs and addicts is vast
and intimidating
we need ways of introducing more players to the game

I don't think that the difference in skill level is part of the major problem. It's like this in virtually every game, yet some games gather a huge following while others don't. The problem is in my opinion the steep learning curve, the concept of grinding seems to be too hard to understand for most new players.

[Tank Program]

The problem is in my opinion the steep learning curve, the concept of grinding seems to be too hard to understand for most new players.

I don't think that's exactly it. I think it's that new players don't understand how people get out of seemingly imposible situations, which we understand because we understand rubber and double binding. Before those two were major factors in game play, it was probably much easier to get into the game and understand it. The question is how to remove these from gameplay and keep the existing population happy.

[epsy]

Epsy:
http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopi ... 401#168401
Hopefully with a framework like this, each desired behavior would be pushed to a ruby script.

oh that's a nice todo list , sadly i'ill be off from 10th of june until the 24th...i may try to publish some kind of start before it...maybe

[philippeqc]

Epsy:
http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopi ... 401#168401
Hopefully with a framework like this, each desired behavior would be pushed to a ruby script.

oh that's a nice todo list :) , sadly i'ill be off from 10th of june until the 24th...i may try to publish some kind of start before it...maybe

Good that you are interested and agree at least with the general lines.

Before you start to hammer some code, we might try to specify it a bit further, so you feel confident to start developing it.

-ph

Edit: In all case, at least this item wont have a bus-factor of 1 it seems.

[MaZuffeR]

The problem is in my opinion the steep learning curve, the concept of grinding seems to be too hard to understand for most new players.

I don't think that's exactly it. I think it's that new players don't understand how people get out of seemingly imposible situations, which we understand because we understand rubber and double binding. Before those two were major factors in game play, it was probably much easier to get into the game and understand it. The question is how to remove these from gameplay and keep the existing population happy.

I was commenting from a fortress point of view where grinding at the start is considered to be the only good way of playing. "nongrinder" is by far the most common reason for kicking on fortress servers.

[epsy]

Before you start to hammer some code, we might try to specify it a bit further, so you feel confident to start developing it.

well, i've already started some in an external php script, i think it wouldn't be that hard to port it to C++/arma

edit: It wasn't intended to be a « tournament regulator », but it's moddable, so we can manage to do it...
btw, i think i'ill need help for moduling in C++

[2020]

(re 1:)
I don't think that the difference in skill level is part of the major problem. It's like this in virtually every game, yet some games gather a huge following while others don't.

but there is a range of skills
and enough players in the community for it to be continuous

in arma fortress
there are those who can
and those who can't
with a big gap

once enough players are involved
with enough servers
the entry platform and skill-ladder will be easier to climb
and maybe that way they can deal with the steep learning curve...

[2020]

http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopi ... 401#168401
Hopefully with a framework like this, each desired behavior would be pushed to a ruby script.

definitely interesting stuff
i do believe
though
it is not really a problem with lack of configurability wrt rounds servers teams
but new players joining teams

that is
it is a player problem
a community human-interface problem
and not really a technical one...

so by all means
reconfigure things and give more felxibility to server-admins
though
let's not lose track of the problem

we have to isolate exactly why more players aren't joining
with eg maz suggestions and tank's
and once we get an accurate enough evaluation of the situation
we come up with a solution
which me then ask developers to perhaps help with
though perhaps this might not be needed;
it might be that the solution is merely player-implementable...

[~*PsYkO*~]

I agree with MaZ..If any of you have played any other online game, the difference from "noob" to "elite" is far greater, far far far greater than in armagetronad. For most of the online games on zone.com or for xbox360 or w/e, at most there are 4 players that really cannot be beaten by anyone else. In AoE3 there were 2 players that were unstoppable, and 1 of those players could not beat the other 1 out of 20 times.