Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but..
Swampland is running on a P4 1.3ghz /768 ram/ 20gig drive. It's connected to the net via Cable Internet. Some ppl don't like the server, but for the most part I think people enjoy playing on it. I know it's got some strange lag issues once in a while and some people have told me they die on there for no reason.
I'm pretty new to Tron (playing about 5 moths) and really new at hosting a server. I started hosting the server under Windows 2000 pro and later brought it up on Mandrake 10.1 community (current). It's running Armegatron 2.7.0.
I'm welcome to any suggestions and will take any help I can get. My current concerns are:
1. Should voiting be turned off (it's been getting abused)
2. How are admins banning users? Just IPTables or is there a better/easier way?
3. What can be done with the slide, lag and strange deaths?
I'd also like to thank Lucifer for his help getting the server running and eggcozy for allowing me to use his config file for the base of Swampland. Thanks guys!
Swampland
I wasted a lot of time worrying about how to prevent weird lag bombs slides etc. I have concluded that my actual settings really don't affect it that much. Not nearly as much as the fact that the internet is erratic. There are just too many routers and swtiches and bowls of oatmeal between your computer and the various players. The farther someone is from your server, the more hops, and the more erraticness. Things will never be perfect.
That said, I reduced my cycle ping rubber to zero. It has improved things for me. There are less erratic moments. I think that when high pinging players joined, the server was compensating for them too much because of the cycle rubber. It was a downer to everyone. People who are far away from the server still have problems with it, but those on the same continent are doing better.
I've also found that a lower cycle delay is better. But if it's too low, then people will hammer the server with lots of rapid turns etc. And the dialup people can't seem to catch all the udp packets coming their way and will warp all over the place. I would recommend between .01 to .05.
I leave the voting on. I figure it's a democracy. There are occasional abuses, but it's generally not the case. Afterall, it takes more than one vote to kick someone off. If the voting abuse doesn't settle down, then turn it off. You can always ban the trouble makers.
Yes, I use iptables to ban the bad dogs. An unfortunate necessity. iptables adds to the lag though, merely by running. I've tested the game with it on and off, and the difference is *very* slight, undetectable a lot of the time. Actually, your processer is zippy enough, so I doubt you would notice the difference.
Now i have the advantage of playing far from my server, so I can experience the game much like any player. If you are playing from the same location, you'll not really know what it's like for them. I recommend you at least go to a friends house to test your server yourself.
And remember that you can't please everyone. Set the server up the way you like it, and if others like, then great. The community is big enough to make a good portion of them happy no matter what your settings are.
That said, I reduced my cycle ping rubber to zero. It has improved things for me. There are less erratic moments. I think that when high pinging players joined, the server was compensating for them too much because of the cycle rubber. It was a downer to everyone. People who are far away from the server still have problems with it, but those on the same continent are doing better.
I've also found that a lower cycle delay is better. But if it's too low, then people will hammer the server with lots of rapid turns etc. And the dialup people can't seem to catch all the udp packets coming their way and will warp all over the place. I would recommend between .01 to .05.
I leave the voting on. I figure it's a democracy. There are occasional abuses, but it's generally not the case. Afterall, it takes more than one vote to kick someone off. If the voting abuse doesn't settle down, then turn it off. You can always ban the trouble makers.
Yes, I use iptables to ban the bad dogs. An unfortunate necessity. iptables adds to the lag though, merely by running. I've tested the game with it on and off, and the difference is *very* slight, undetectable a lot of the time. Actually, your processer is zippy enough, so I doubt you would notice the difference.
Now i have the advantage of playing far from my server, so I can experience the game much like any player. If you are playing from the same location, you'll not really know what it's like for them. I recommend you at least go to a friends house to test your server yourself.
And remember that you can't please everyone. Set the server up the way you like it, and if others like, then great. The community is big enough to make a good portion of them happy no matter what your settings are.
Re: Swampland
An unfortunate fact of life for server admins is that your server will be abused. There's no "maybe" about it. It happens. Voting specifically, if you turn it off then you'll have people abusing the fact that nobody can kick them. If you turn it on, then you have what you have now. Either way, people fukk with your server and the other players and ruin the game (temporarily). The alternative to no voting is to tell other "trusted" players your in-game password (if you have one), ideally with enough trusted players that there's always someone there to render justice, perfect or otherwise.Swampy wrote: I'm welcome to any suggestions and will take any help I can get. My current concerns are:
1. Should voiting be turned off (it's been getting abused)
iptables is the only way right now that I'm aware of. If I can get the in-game commands at the regular console, I'll add that to AAD and then I can add more ways to do it. There's a bug (race condition, near as I can tell) that prevents me from tracking logged-in players right now. I happen to know that your logs are being saved to syslog (unless you've made significant changes to the server since I last touched it), and your iptables is all setup (you have an email from me with directions for that). It's not the best way, known flaws about DHCP folks and dialup users (I never did manage to get Evil Inside off my server).The Swamp Thing wrote:2. How are admins banning users? Just IPTables or is there a better/easier way?
It just so happens that if you haven't made huge changes since I last looked at it, your server already has everything you can do, done. Like ish mentioned, it's mostly the internet itself that causes these things. Other causes are if the armagetronad-dedicated process runs for too long without restarting (fixed with a cronjob--you have this cronjob already), and making sure the aa-dedicated process has a low enough niceness that it gets most/all of the processor (fixed in the init.d script I gave you). You can try tweaking it like ish suggested, but I'm going to bet the difference will be mostly not noticeable.Swampee wrote:3. What can be done with the slide, lag and strange deaths?
Happy to help!I'd also like to thank Lucifer for his help getting the server running and eggcozy for allowing me to use his config file for the base of Swampland. Thanks guys!
Now if I can just fix my own servers again.... (no time, sorry! Mass Destruction was running last I checked, though)
love your settings swampy 
and please do not set ping-rubber to zero; in my opinon it doesn't solve lag but makes grinding hellishly difficult and any "movement" in the network translates directly into the game (ping-rubber evens it out somewhat)
i can back up my experience by comparing how it to play at tank's armagetron clone, how it is to play at armagoshdarnish, and how it is to play at swampland:
- at tanks i have such a low ping (0 to 90) that i in effect have no ping "benefits" ever, but because it is so close i can manage to reeducate and readjust if i play long enough (by the time i'm close to doing this i've usually scared everyone away though
)
- at ishadmins i used to get about 225 to 300 ping (all pings are ingame and not the real ones btw) and now it basically makes internet traffic a tactile experience lol --which in itself is interesting enough-- (no way for me to readjust to that)
- at swampy's i get about 198 to 280 ping and it's smooth sailing except when lag strikes us all (and basically fairly even)
just my experience as an "always log off if i'm over 400 ping and it's not a spike" user with broadband connection (1200|380 iirc)
and please do not set ping-rubber to zero; in my opinon it doesn't solve lag but makes grinding hellishly difficult and any "movement" in the network translates directly into the game (ping-rubber evens it out somewhat)
i can back up my experience by comparing how it to play at tank's armagetron clone, how it is to play at armagoshdarnish, and how it is to play at swampland:
- at tanks i have such a low ping (0 to 90) that i in effect have no ping "benefits" ever, but because it is so close i can manage to reeducate and readjust if i play long enough (by the time i'm close to doing this i've usually scared everyone away though
)- at ishadmins i used to get about 225 to 300 ping (all pings are ingame and not the real ones btw) and now it basically makes internet traffic a tactile experience lol --which in itself is interesting enough--
(no way for me to readjust to that)- at swampy's i get about 198 to 280 ping and it's smooth sailing except when lag strikes us all (and basically fairly even)
just my experience as an "always log off if i'm over 400 ping and it's not a spike" user with broadband connection (1200|380 iirc)
in regards to n54's comment cycle ping rubber. it's true that it makes the game harder for people half a world away, but it makes the game better for people on the same continent.
I'm conflicted with what to do here frankly. I'd like the game to be great for everyone, but I just can't do that. I'm of the opinion at the moment that there are enough servers in each area that everyone can find what they like close to them. When I try to play those servers from Europe (I'm in Canada), I have a hell of a time. No matter what their various settings are.
Truthfully though, I don't have the foggiest idea what each setting truly does on the inside of the game. Everything I've ever done is experiment and observe. Now that Z-man is accessible again, perhaps he can shed some light on the whole rubber/lag/cycle delay issue.
One more question, if anyone from Europe knows of a U.S. based server that they get *good* performance on, I would like to know what it is. Perhaps there is something I can learn from their particular settings.
I'm conflicted with what to do here frankly. I'd like the game to be great for everyone, but I just can't do that. I'm of the opinion at the moment that there are enough servers in each area that everyone can find what they like close to them. When I try to play those servers from Europe (I'm in Canada), I have a hell of a time. No matter what their various settings are.
Truthfully though, I don't have the foggiest idea what each setting truly does on the inside of the game. Everything I've ever done is experiment and observe. Now that Z-man is accessible again, perhaps he can shed some light on the whole rubber/lag/cycle delay issue.
One more question, if anyone from Europe knows of a U.S. based server that they get *good* performance on, I would like to know what it is. Perhaps there is something I can learn from their particular settings.
If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about it, ish.ishAdmin wrote: I'm conflicted with what to do here frankly. I'd like the game to be great for everyone, but I just can't do that. I'm of the opinion at the moment that there are enough servers in each area that everyone can find what they like close to them. When I try to play those servers from Europe (I'm in Canada), I have a hell of a time. No matter what their various settings are.
I pounce on new breakfast clones just because that means I have to worry *less* about how well mine are running (and there only seems to be one besides me now, and I'm down to one that's more or less randomly chosen by my kernel). And, of course, when people demand I do things to my server that requires fundamental fixes to the internet I just invite them to run their own servers and "show me how it's done".Yeah, I'm all for "make it fun for as many people as possible". I'm also for "eating dinner with my family, going to school, working, etc". Know what I mean?
Yeah, except packet loss isn't a problem I've actually observed over at Swampland.ishAdmin wrote:Yes Luci, I forget to mention that you could renice the process. And run nothing else if you can.
Certain peak times there's some, but for the most part it runs pretty smoothly. It actually runs really well even considering the bad pings many of us have over there.Personally, I think ping is overrated. I say it on the grid a lot, but there are a number of players that have come in with 400-600 pings and cleaned up, not because their pings gave them some sort of lag advantage, but because they were *really* good. So what we really need to do to fix this ping problem is just fukking relax and play the game, and start using our brains to compensate.
Here's how I see it:ishAdmin wrote:in regards to n54's comment cycle ping rubber. it's true that it makes the game harder for people half a world away, but it makes the game better for people on the same continent.
I'm conflicted with what to do here frankly. I'd like the game to be great for everyone, but I just can't do that.
- first and foremost and above all: the one hosting the server is for all practical purposes god and can do exactly whatever they want without any need to explain or anything like that (although it's always nice and interesting to know of course). I sincerely believe that. I do not mean to critisize anyone: server-admins are the backbone of the community.
- secondly (and this is my egosentricity
) my experiene is that most of the good servers (or more correctly: server settings i enjoy) or perhaps good players within the armagoshdarn/breakfast/swamp-inspired gameplay are on the american continent and for that reason i play "over there" (the exception to this is Tanks swedish armagetron server, but since that one is hard for most "over the pond"...)enough about that, i just want to make sure that i'm not misunderstood: diversity is a good thing (and at the core of the game in so many ways)
back to the main issue, i'm wondering if anyone has tried setting up a dedicated server using a linux minimalist distro without any unneccesary services or graphical interfaces? or even another step further: using a minimalist distro compiled specifically for that machine (using special flags for processor type details etc.). I'm wondering if it makes any noticable difference from what i think some of you are doing (if i understood correctly: using normal distros but simply not using it for anything but the server).
it's just a thought and it might be a red herring
I have considered customizing Mandrake to build an armagetron dedicated server. When my aadaemon is more advanced it's my intention to offer an iso that you can burn and install and have a complete dedicated server, then install a GUI client on your machine to administer it. Anybody want to help?n54 wrote: back to the main issue, i'm wondering if anyone has tried setting up a dedicated server using a linux minimalist distro without any unneccesary services or graphical interfaces? or even another step further: using a minimalist distro compiled specifically for that machine (using special flags for processor type details etc.). I'm wondering if it makes any noticable difference from what i think some of you are doing (if i understood correctly: using normal distros but simply not using it for anything but the server).
it's just a thought and it might be a red herring
As for compiling for your machine, that's fairly overrated these days. Some very specialized applications benefit from being compiled for the machine, and sometimes you can get better latency compiling certain drivers (not many, this problem's mostly gone away). It's not like we even have to think about 3dNow or MMX anymore.
Now, I did try building armagetronad for my architecture, optimized and all. Having gcc3.4 problems (haven't download the newest fixes either), but other than that, no improvements in speed. Of course, I am running a Duron, maybe if I had a full-fledged Athlon it would be different. Maybe it doesn't matter because my GPU does most of the real work anyway? Beats me.
I'm following the thread.. I don't have much input yet 
I'm going to take a look at the services though and see if there's anything eating up processor or memory and try stopping them if they aren't needed. We'll see how that goes for starters.
edit:
I have a little more info to add:
There are only two processes that are using CPU over 1%. One was dedicated tron and the other was the desktop (KDE). Tron used as little as 20% and as high as 39% the entire time I watched it. For the most part it stayed around 25%. There was only four players at the time I checked it. I'll peek in again when the server is full. Memory usage was low, around 225mb used of a reported 631 and no swap was being used at all. Tron was running as priority 4 (nice).
edit: ok, so I took another look when there was 6 players online and the system was using 303mb of 631 reported. Total processor usage ranged between 39-43 (tron used an average of 39).
I might experiment and bring Swampland back up on Win2k for kicks. It's on a second HD that's disconnected, so it's a snap to get running. Some of the settings (cycle_delay, Master server name and 0 points lost for suicide) will be back to what they were back in October, but everything else is the same. You'll know when it's on Win2k when it's displayed as just "Swampland". Anyone up for some experimenting?
I'm going to take a look at the services though and see if there's anything eating up processor or memory and try stopping them if they aren't needed. We'll see how that goes for starters.
edit:
I have a little more info to add:
There are only two processes that are using CPU over 1%. One was dedicated tron and the other was the desktop (KDE). Tron used as little as 20% and as high as 39% the entire time I watched it. For the most part it stayed around 25%. There was only four players at the time I checked it. I'll peek in again when the server is full. Memory usage was low, around 225mb used of a reported 631 and no swap was being used at all. Tron was running as priority 4 (nice).
edit: ok, so I took another look when there was 6 players online and the system was using 303mb of 631 reported. Total processor usage ranged between 39-43 (tron used an average of 39).
I might experiment and bring Swampland back up on Win2k for kicks. It's on a second HD that's disconnected, so it's a snap to get running. Some of the settings (cycle_delay, Master server name and 0 points lost for suicide) will be back to what they were back in October, but everything else is the same. You'll know when it's on Win2k when it's displayed as just "Swampland". Anyone up for some experimenting?
-
Lackadaisical
- Shutout Match Winner
- Posts: 823
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:58 pm
- Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
- Contact:
Note that Tron eats up more memory when it stays on for a long time, which is what happened on goshdarn and caused the 'almost unbearable' lag.Swampy wrote:Memory usage was low, around 225mb used of a reported 631 and no swap was being used at all. Tron was running as priority 4 (nice).
edit: ok, so I took another look when there was 6 players online and the system was using 303mb of 631 reported.
Official Officiant of the Official Armagetron Clan Registration Office
Back (in the sig) by popular demand: Lack draws
Back (in the sig) by popular demand: Lack draws
Well I did some resetting tonight because my ISP (Comcast cable) boosted our bandwidth up from 2.4 megabits per second to 4.6. I had to reset my cable modem to get the newer speed. Most users on tonight had pings under 100, so it made an improvement. I also rebooted the server and the memory usage dropped to about 113mb used, and that was with 6 players on.
I think the cron job that restarts the dedicated server needs some looking into. Other than that, I think it's in better shape now.
I think the cron job that restarts the dedicated server needs some looking into. Other than that, I think it's in better shape now.