Nothing

[Light]

Well, you are a rather simple-minded fellow now aren't you? This is not about having IPs recorded, it is about who is recording and why. If this is a tool to do good, then everyone should have access to it and be allowed to make changes. That is not the case now is it? If this database is for the benefit of the community then let the community decide how they want to use such a tool, if they want to use it. From what I can see it is a localized tool accessed by a privileged few. That is bad.

I wouldn't have expect that one .. You would be happier if I made the tool public? I saw someone try making it public in the past, and everyone bitched that it shouldn't be. The only reason I would bother to keep it private is because of things like that.

It isn't just troublemakers who want be anonymous. Some people simply don't want to be identified because they don't want to be bothered.

For normal people, I can't see you looking them up without a reason. If you did, you would be looking up about every person that comes into the server, which would be a huge pain and would grow old fast.

Maybe we should just identify everyone by their IP so no one needs a username anymore? Whenever you log into an Arma server there could be a console message saying "Hello Durf, welcome to NabZone HR!" This is easily scripted. It's a good idea, right? ....Not.

First, I should point out that all the higher ranks of the server have access to their IP the instant they come in. But .. that's not exactly a public message so we'll ignore that for now ..

I know you're being sarcastic, but I would prefer it as I've stated in the past. Not by IP, of course. That would lead to people becoming different people constantly. But, if we had an account worth using, and not changing, I would love it. If people stayed a single person (account) like they do in just about every other game, it would make life so much simpler, and this tool would have no reason to have ever existed. I wasn't the first to find it useful and I sure as hell won't be the last. I was just the first (that I know of) to put so much together.

I would probably point this over to your "Aliases Suck" thread, but I can't actually say I've read it. It looked like an unrelated debate was going on in there, so I wasn't feeling the urge to jump in.

[ConVicT]

Everyone here is a bunch of nabs. (except Light)

How was I being a nab? I think it's a useful thing

[Durf]

@ConVicT,
except Light and ConVicT*
Sorry I was just in a confrontational mood in general, and must have forgotten about your post since it was fine

@sinewav, I am aware it is not specifically about IPs but the association regarding it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "makes changes" to what Light was offering. I mean, if someone creates something and releases it to any community; it is the community's choice whether or not to use it. You wouldn't ever be able to make any changes that you wanted unless Light specifically made that available to you. It is his to offer, not yours; his to change as he sees fit, not yours. If you don't want to use it, then don't.

As for making it publicly available, doesn't that contradict your desire to be anonymous? or rather 'just play a game'..? Then anyone could look you up and bother you. However you would only ever be looked up if you had a reason to be looked up in the first place. If you remain 'under the radar' so-to-speak, then no one would bother to look you up.

AFAIK what Light was offering was a way for server admins to contact him when they have a problematic player that NEEDS to be dealt with. A good service. So it is my opinion that even the WAY that Light offered it (to a "privileged few") was VERY considerate to all the nice players who 'just want to play a game'.

What I would like to know is, how does the existence of such a database-lookup service, such as Light suggested, effect you or anyone's ability to "just play a game" or remain anonymous?
Who would be forcing you to be social? That doesn't make any sense; just don't be social.
Playing Armagetron with TEXT_OUT 0 might be a good start towards being anti-social.

Also, if you wanted to reduce the number of servers you can play on simply because they have a database+script to do a task that all server admins eventually end up doing, then by all means do so. It is your choice...Why on earth would he change anything because of a few complainers. Good ideas often have to push though a lot of ridicule before it makes its way to "common knowledge".

Keep in mind that Light offered you HIS list of servers that do this. Anyone is capable of doing what Light has done and they are in NO WAY required to tell you about it or the servers that have it. Frankly it is just something you have to deal with; as I said, if you fail at being anonymous it is your own fault.

I only ever play as Durf and have never had a need to change the name; maybe it is just me but I don't understand your point of view.

@Light, it was a good idea...maybe in time people will come around

[ConVicT]

Aaannnd, BOOM goes the dynamite.

[sinewav]

I saw someone try making it public in the past, and everyone bitched that it shouldn't be. The only reason I would bother to keep it private is because of things like that.

That of course is your first clue that you shouldn't be doing it and I can't imagine why you would expect a different reaction.

Playing Armagetron with TEXT_OUT 0 might be a good start towards being anti-social.

Har, har. Been doing that for years, but I still need to be anonymous while doing it.

Look kids, I don't have time to get into the great debate about this shit. What it comes down to is this: any tool that allows one group of people to exercise power over another in a widespread fashion, without oversight, is bad, period.[/] If you don't understand why, I can't help you. I can't possibly see how a database that collects IPs would be effective against troublemakers with spoofed IPs. Seems like a lot of regular people would get caught up in the banning frenzy which would ultimately do no good (For more on this, see Ww in 2009). But whatever, do what you want.

[epsy]

Keep in mind that Light offered you HIS list of servers that do this.

No he hasn't, and this is my beef with it.

[Light]

That of course is your first clue that you shouldn't be doing it and I can't imagine why you would expect a different reaction.

Well, the complaint was that it was going to be public. Not that it existed. I took some of the ideas posted towards what he did and used them here, so not everyone could look you up, and now what they claimed to want there is the opposite of what's being claimed here. So, yes I would expect a different reaction when I'm actually listening to what people say they want, and then doing it. I thought it would be useful to share with server owners, and it really wasn't supposed to cause a problem.

any tool that allows one group of people to exercise power over another in a widespread fashion, without oversight, is bad, period.

So, if this was public, and everyone could use it, you wouldn't have a problem with it?

I can't possibly see how a database that collects IPs would be effective against troublemakers with spoofed IPs. Seems like a lot of regular people would get caught up in the banning frenzy which would ultimately do no good (For more on this, see Ww in 2009). But whatever, do what you want.

Well, it's true. You get people that spoof IP's, others who use other peoples' names, and even a few issues with the alias command for spoofing logins. If you use a little common sense when you use it, it's usually pretty simple to filter out the fakes.

I should note that the IP's of the users in-game are only available to higher ranks anyways. If you're simply looking up IP's by username, then of course you're looking for trouble. My page allowed you to quickly scan through different usernames and IP's by clicking on the results, so you could come up with who the IP belonged to. If it's an IP through a proxy, even then people tend to make mistakes and link themselves back to who they are. It don't take long to catch a login and link it back to confirm it's real most of the time.

Sometimes peoples' dynamic IP's change too often to catch who they are, and sometimes people actually keep their proxy name separate from their regular name, but it's still something to help rather than just guessing. Guessing is much more likely to result in accidental bans than using a tool like this.

Look kids, I don't have time to get into the great debate about this shit

Actin' like that was pretty unnecessary. Just kind'a made you seem like a prick. I have nothing against you, but I dislike when people talk like that towards others.

[Light]

No he hasn't, and this is my beef with it.

I just can't do that. I don't want people to overreact and avoid using the servers or services because of that. I think it's just simpler to go with what I've already done, and decide to not go forward with it. It was supposed to be something to help, but people seem to go both ways on how they want it done and there's always a side getting upset. Just not worth it ..

[ConVicT]

any tool that allows one group of people to exercise power over another in a widespread fashion, without oversight, is bad, period

I don't want to get involved in this debate really, cuz I always end up being the bad one.
I just want to say this. If he were in one of his servers and you were in at the same time (he's admin, obviously), and he happened to type /players, isn't that the same thing apart from this allows him to check everything a few days/weeks (however long) without having to be there?
I mean every server owner gets logs from their server, so isn't he just cutting down the manual labour, so that he, or anyone he happens to give it to won't have to read through logs for a couple of hours?

[Light]

I just wanna pick out a couple things.

If he were in one of his servers and you were in at the same time (he's admin, obviously), and he happened to type /players, isn't that the same thing apart from this allows him to check everything a few days/weeks (however long) without having to be there?

Basically, except it remembers past usernames. So, a little more in-depth than /players, but not anything special to the logs, except it's across multiple servers.

I mean every server owner gets logs from their server, so isn't he just cutting down the manual labour, so that he, or anyone he happens to give it to won't have to read through logs for a couple of hours?

Yes, it cuts down time of checking logs, as you can simply click through to scan for each one instead of typing a new command ... which brings me to my next point.

If you scan through them for a couple hours, you're completely nuts. We have the "grep" command for a very good reason. If you were to scan for a username or IP, it would take seconds rather than hours.

Though, getting back to your point. No, it's nothing more than that. My script actually parsed the log files. The only reason for the (big bad word) database was to take it off of flatfile (a basic text file). It makes it much faster and less use of resources. But no, not anything you can't do by simply running through your log file.

// Edit - A tad unrelated but just saw your Gigi avatar. Love it!

[ConVicT]

Well, cheers. Picked it especially for you, sweetheart.

[sinewav]

Keep in mind that Light offered you HIS list of servers that do this.

No he hasn't, and this is my beef with it.

I just can't do that.

Yet we are supposed to trust you now? If you believe so strongly that your tool is a good thing why not openly share the code and what servers are using it? Are you sure you don't work for the NSA? Maybe you can use this thread to get a job with them.

[Light]

If you believe so strongly that your tool is a good thing why not openly share the code and what servers are using it?

The reactions, such as yours, show a very good reason not to reveal where they were coming from. Also, it's completely unimportant now, since it's not happening. Why would I list them out after the reaction I've gotten here when I'm not doing it is a better question. There's also no script involved. Everything you need is stored in the server logs by default. So, the answer to your question would actually be "no servers".

Are you sure you don't work for the NSA? Maybe you can use this thread to get a job with them.

Don't the same recycled jokes ever get old to you?

[Durf]

@Light, Dynamic IPs aren't an issue. The entire range of IPs that a ISP service gives a user is publicly available with a whois lookup. You can get the range of a proxy service too.
Also there are things that I have done in the past to psychologically profile users xD spoof aliases and IPs don't matter when you are still the same person.
But I'm sure I just raised the level of paranoia so I won't say more

@sinewav,
Isn't your attitude towards 'changing the way Light is doing this' a little bit like someone (say myself) demanding that you change the way your website is?
Isn't it yours? I could only ever give you criticism, constructive or not. But for me to demand changes for something that isn't even my own creation...Seriously? I wouldn't ever do that. I couldn't do that lol.
But you can think about me never visiting your site again, and think about how much that motivates you to change it xD

Light asked a good question, would you prefer that everyone anywhere be able to use it..?

You mentioned without 'oversight' but I thought that was what Light was specifically offering; a way for server admins to go through him/his service to deal with a trouble maker. It's not like just anyone would be able to lookup the entire history of anyone (afaik). Based on what I think he was offering.

Are people missing the point that Light didn't even have to let you know about it? It is not his obligation to tell you any of what he did.
So think about that for a second...why would he do something he doesn't have to? It was trying to provide a useful service to server admins that needed it. A good thing. Otherwise he was specifically looking to get his idea bashed on...doesn't make sense. so say "thank you" to Light for at least trying.

If you still think it would do more harm than good by offering it to other server admins, then you already voiced that opinion; Light is not obligated to even listen to it.

Again, it isn't yours to be making any decisions with, so if you don't want to use it then don't.
But there is nothing you can do to prevent yourself from being identified by such databases.
If you don't like it deal with it. Seems fairly simple to me.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like a good debate, but in kind "what it comes down to is" that is belongs to Light, and there is nothing that you can do to prevent it's use (other than the efforts you already have made using extortion) or any other server admin using theirs. So it doesn't matter whether or not it fits a profile of 'good' or 'bad' for the community anyway. If Light wants to do something bad for the community then it is his choice is it not? what it comes down to is mostly irrelevant, its like getting upset that grass is green.

Just think, other admins DO this, and they don't post about it publicly. You gonna avoid any server you THINK does it? Just ignore it, just play the game if that's all you want to do. The whole database thing doesn't change how you would play tron unless you specifically made it that way. (i.e. caring too much about something that barely effects you, or trolling under alias with the thought that no one would ever find out)
So if you have nothing to worry about, then it shouldn't be a problem...Both epsy and you sinewav, have shown a considerable amount suspicious reactions to this idea, No one would bother you if you aren't worth bothering.

Glad that you brought up the NSA though...why not complain some more about something you cannot effect?
xD provides an excellent analogy. If you read anything regarding the NSA, you already agree to any information sent to them. That being said, it is exactly like you choosing to go on a server that has logs; it was your choice to go there in the first place. Do you refuse to use the internet? Email? Websites? just because the NSA will know about it? I think you might have already dealt with that fact...so deal with the existence of such databases.

[sinewav]

We already have a system in place to deal with troublemakers. It's called authentication. It was created by the community, for the community, to address problems in the community. It is completely open and documented and no one needs special permission to use it. Users can know if a server has authentication enabled. They have the choice to play in those servers or not. How exactly is keeping a secret database that only a few can access valuable when this superior system is already in place? Since when has banning a serious troublemaker's IP ever stopped that person from causing trouble? No, seriously, when did this person learn their lesson and reform or go away?

I used to travel for work all the time. I've been caught up in range bans on a few occasions. Do you know how bloody annoying it is when you are stuck in a hotel in the middle of nowhere and you just want to play in your favorite server but can't because some admin decided to employ a useless IP ban? I've seen players miss tournaments because the server owner had a range ban in place and couldn't get the IP lifted in time. But hey, if this is how you want to go about doing stuff, fine, but please just don't offer any of your servers for tournaments originating on this forum.

Also, Durf, you seem like a fatalist. I'm sorry you look at the world that way. And I am certainly not paranoid since I've seen firsthand how these sort of "tools" have more negative effects than positive ones. And Durf, I know you are one of the troublemakers in this game. I've seen you in action. So forgive me if I don't take you seriously.