Split: Fortress culture

[Gonzap]

of course they ren't because he does not know shit about fortress but still for playing one day (who knows who was playing with him) he comes here and talks about innovation and that trying new tactics is fort "blasphemy". That shows how much he knows about the way fort is evolving. Teams are innovating all the time. He should better stay in the sub-forum "Really General" and troll people for not wanting to read, making (in his eyes) stupid jokes, etc., because about fortress he knows nothing.

[2020]

sounds like a possible solution --
a specific forum area for fortress?
only people interested in it will end up going there
no?

[Titanoboa]

Phyto, I agree that the way new players are currently handled is a problem. Spoon-feeding people with information, usually without any explanation why, and punishment for those who disobey -- doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I'd very much prefer having a functional tutorial system (a good message_of_day could do the trick), that the players can easily refer to. ("Player 1: rejoin the server and read the welcome message")

And there's the problem of teammate killers, and even more so when they feel encouraged to do it. I guess most see it as a short-term solution (lasts for the rest of the round) to save the team.

Meanwhile, the players in these public fort servers compromise to try and enjoy a good game and still manage to welcome new players. Obviously not all are doing that, but you shouldn't put us all in one category.

Would anyone be interested in helping designing a good message_of_day that could be used in e.g. G5's fort? Maybe both experienced players and newer ones can help with input. Or is that more than we can handle? (:


Edit: 2020 that idea might actually be kinda good. Seems like fort is "taking over" all over these forums, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

[dariv]

Fort is a team game, and the way it is set up, it's very easy to die at the start if you don't understand how it works.

So if you are new, it appears as if you are being team-killed for not following a strict (and apparently arbitrary) code. However, that code exists precisely to stop team-killing. If there was no common agreement on what to do at the spawn, I'm sure there would be a lot more team-killing than there currently is.

[2020]

include a video in the download package
specifically the launch at fortress
something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa8Bt-Na02k
with a little more in the way of explanation...

[sinewav]

Would anyone be interested in helping designing a good message_of_day that could be used in e.g. G5's fort?

I had an even better idea while reading this. How about a script that generates "tips for new players" in-between rounds? CTWF has tips for most maps in the console. But we could even put them in round_center_message. If done correctly, it wouldn't be too intrusive. I could see us easily writing over a dozen "basic" comments about Fortress play to rotate in.

And, almost no one reads the MOD or /help anyway.

[Ratchet]

Would anyone be interested in helping designing a good message_of_day that could be used in e.g. G5's fort?

And, almost no one reads the MOD or /help anyway.

Side note: For (about) 2 years, I recall, almost daily, new guys entering the WwCTFS server, and repeatedly asking how to shoot. Of course, there would be the typical 'shift esc!' , 'alt f4!', but few people actually referenced that there was a pretty visible explanation displayed every round: "PRESS BRAKES TO SHOOT, KEYBIND IS 'V' BY DEFAULT!".

I seriously doubt any sort of in-game explanation shall do any different. Perhaps a RA command to demand a player's console output to consist of a set of instructions until they press a certain key, [enter] perhaps, shall be a bit more helpful, providing the admins don't abuse it. In minds eye, I visualize this as the equivalent to 'Message of Day', but only being aimed at one particular person, and at any point during a game.

[Concord]

or we could continue teaching those who want to learn

[Phytotron]

Um, Gonzap, I've been playing Armagetron since early 2005, before fortress even existed. (Well, I did take a break between 2006-2009, only checking in about every 6 months; still, I did keep tabs.) It's not as though fortress or its concepts are new to me. Indeed, I was one of its first players and, ironically, contributed to developing some of the basic gameplay tactics you all still regimentally employ round after round. I think you take fortress way too personally.

Titan, I didn't lump everyone together (although, look how some of your fellow fortress players have acknowledged how commonplace a standard practice it is). I'm expressing something that I have witnessed and/or personally experienced, without exception, every single time I've entered a fortress server within the last year (at least). I think it's bad for the game, and a chink in the righteousness of some fortress players. This was originally a thread about the "best fortress players," and you'll notice that several people broke down "best" into different categories, in some cases praising people for their contributions beyond just basic skill or whatever. While I phrased it in the (double) negative, the point, "speaking generally rather than experientially," was to give credit to whomever doesn't behave in that manner, a manner that I do nearly equate with the "press shift+esc for speed" comments. Someone who, instead, goes out of their way to teach in a more constructive, rather than retributive manner. Given that I don't play (or pay attention) enough to know who, specifically, might qualify, I spoke generically, leaving someone else to name a name. Oh well.


2020, this game is about more than fortress, no matter how much you want to elevate it to divinity. Sure, have a separate forum (this forum should be generalist, anyway). No, don't include a video with the download package. That's as objectionable as making fortress the default local game.

[INW]

default local game.

A tourney using those settings will be coming out within 2 months.

[Concord]

I just think the line you draw between constructive teaching and retributive teaching is both completely arbitrary and completely irrelevant.

Also, one cannot view the teaching methods of one culture through the mindset of another.

[Phytotron]

Right back atcha, slick.

Calling Margaret Mead.

[Gonzap]

Um, Gonzap, I've been playing Armagetron since early 2005, before fortress even existed. (Well, I did take a break between 2006-2009, only checking in about every 6 months; still, I did keep tabs.) It's not as though fortress or its concepts are new to me. Indeed, I was one of its first players and, ironically, contributed to developing some of the basic gameplay tactics you all still regimentally employ round after round. I think you take fortress way too personally.

Exactly, I do take it way too personally. You just proved my point... the fortress we play today is way different to the fortress that was played in the first year of this game type. Innovation is everywhere and everyone is part of it, the game evolved into something much more complicated and more difficult to teach. It's like computers... if you don't learn the basics you can't make harder stuff. Double grinding, grinding in general, splitting and not-getting-inside-the-defense are basics that we try to teach everyone who asks for it. BUT we only teach those who want to learn or at least understand what we are trying to tell them... some don't even speak english and some just don't care... so we suspend those, because they make it impossible for the ones that already control the basics and want to have some fun perfecting the details.

Of course there are some assholes that tell new players to "shift-esc" and so on, but those are not liked within the community either, and it's really bad seen between good players to tell those things to newbies.

[2020]

Let's face it, fortress needs help.

It is not just like any other server (though ct is comparable): the insistence on grinding at start is essential. It's a team game and loose individuals popping up for a game find the learning curve too steep.

Don't know about elevating to divine, Phytotron, but there are plenty of games like GO, and many of them are popular, but GO requires a bit of... patience... because it is so minimal and the probability space so large to be inconceivable.

Don't know why I am saying these things. I said them before. Nothing changes. Linear forums... grrr....

[syllabear]

Phyto, I still don't understand. I deliberately named the topic "Best FORTRESS play of 2010".

If you don't play/like fortress why did you post?