OMG holer!!!

[ed]

I hope people don't get the idea that ct-kyle is somehow the voice of CT Wild. He is, of course, entitled to his own opinions. If he doesn't want to use holes, that's fine with me.
If I disagreed with using holes, I'd take them out.

If you see a hole, use it. Take out the last remaining defender and begin your victory run back up the grid.
Or mistime it, run into a wall and curl up into a foetal position somewhere.

It's a team game. If the enemy has allowed themselves to become vulnerable, they have noone to blame but themselves for losing the round. Don't start blaming holes.

[anjori]

Well put, ed.

Unfortunately, it's a few of the more vocal players that make it seem like the majority of them are whiners. I've learned to ignore it, and even embrace it at times, but I imagine it can be discouraging to some of the newer players who aren't used to the cliques that have formed on some servers.

At the end of the day though, what can you really do? Where there's Internets, there will be drama.

[Infamous]

Thats my favorite instant chat i made
a lot of the time i use it as a joke

but there are times that there is no one that is good on my team

lately i have had less and less time to play and i think back to the fun 3 Vs 3 all good players
a lot of the times lately there is 1 good team and 1 crappy team full of n00bs

now do not get me wrong in what i say because i do not mind n00bs that much i eaven have trained some n00bs its just getting to the point were there are too many n00bs on a server to teach and tell then what they could do better to improve

On another thought i do not think i have put a n00b up for a poll in a while.
now if someone is Tking or not grinding and they have been told about 3 times and there is a poll then i will kick that person.

ok now why am i saying n00b so much even here its there skill level easy way that everyone knows what it means.

I remember when i was a n00b no one really thought me how to play i just had to pick it up as i went i remember getting kicked 3 times before getting accepted by all(most) on CT wild. No there are too many n00bs to kick or tell what they are doing wrong. I will agree if you tell them most times they listen.

and the bright red i made it an instant it sticks out i like it almost all my instants are in color want me to change the color i will if that bothers you i just made it different from default thats all.

don't i also complement them what i use "only n00bs write in color all the time". you know not many n00b's know how to write in color.

I'll try to ease up on them when i made them all but the hole one it was a joke; now sometimes it is more real.

One more note i know there are better players than me after all i am currently only 6th in CT rank; but a n00b is only referred to as a beginner.

/me is a n00b at writing look how unorganized this post is

i know you aren't intentionally insulting people, but imagine how these "noobs" feel when, everytime you die and your team loses you call them all noobs. It's effectively saying "i'm good, and all my team are shit, that's why we're losing".

Can't you see how people (some of them might not even speak english fluantly, and won't be able to pick up on sarcasm or irony and only know the word noob as a derogatory word) might be insulted by that?

back on topic, and i think i have just thought of a name for our ladle team.

[kyle]

I just think you need to work to get what you want.

i'll go back to when i was a n00b once again
they called me a n00b did that stop me from playing??
ofcource not i just got beter fast. I actulay came in at diffent times. I'll stop using those or modify them without n00b in them...

I'll post the rest of this in about an hour

[kyle]

See, I've never understood this logic. Should we not use brakes or grinding (wouldn't want to have an unfair speed advantage), either? In a game--sports or otherwise--isn't the purpose to find and exploit weaknesses or "holes" in your opponents defense and, um, win? If I was watching a hockey or soccer game and a player purposely ignored an opening to keep his foolish pride, I would think he was a bloody idiot. If a goalie had a blind spot due to a teammate or opponent being in his line of vision and the opposing team refused to exploit it, I would ask why the hell they're even playing the game.

Both teams can use that fairly. a hole is not fair use because if everyone keeps using them then the game will be over in 3 seconds because team will intentualy make holes jut to win.

by the way i'll modify my holing instant chat to take out n00b.
but the /me is surounded by n00bs = /team you all suck i want a new team. so i will keep that.

as for my color one i do not think it really applies to n00bs

those are the main ones i use with n00bs in it

I understand everyone has there own opinions on holes and i stand with:

I just think its a cheap way to play the game by using holes
i think you should have to work to make ground of the defender and not just cut in

[Lucifer]

Both teams can use that fairly. a hole is not fair use because if everyone keeps using them then the game will be over in 3 seconds because team will intentualy make holes jut to win.

You must have started playing after that phase was over. You want to know what happened when everyone did use them? Goalies and other defenders adapted.

To sum up this thread:

Side A says holes are unfair because if everyone uses them the game will be over too quick. The Spaniard uses his right hand. Side A prefers to play with their left hands.

Side B says they've been there and done that and has experiences to back them in their view that holes do not have the effect feared by Side A.

Just so we're all on the same page, let me try to give an example of cheating:

Person C runs a server. When he joins someone else's server, he greps his logs for the names of the players on the other team. Then he runs his fancy generate lag script on those players to push their pings up over 600 each. His team walks all over them.

Here's something we all can do: Join the other team and teamkill them a few rounds, then join back to your first team, finish the game and win.

Let's see, how does "intentionally makes hole for teammate" compare?

[kyle]

I think if you choose to or not to use holes all goes back to when you started playing fortress

I know me and 3dot started around the same time and are both Anti-holers

another thing here it was when i began playing fortress was when i actulay liked the idea of holeing(yes i liked it for about a wek or two) but later decided it was unfair to the defender after i defended a few times

thats why i say its n00bish

[Lucifer]

Well, I'm gonna pull a Psyk0 on all of you and take credit for making it work. It's possible someone made it work as a coordinated effort before me, but nobody's stepped up to say so. On the other hand, I saw how useful accidental holes were and wanted to try intentionally making holes. Using holes is something people have always done, since before there even was a fortress game. Stuck in a box? Well lookiee here, that nice gentleman just made a hole for you.

Why does it matter? I guess that depends on how you define noob. Am I a noob?

I think you misunderstand cheating, or wish to make your own rules on every server you play. I don't object terribly to a code of honor. There was a certain tactic (I forget what it's called) in cricket that was developed in the early 1900s. Some English team went to Australia and used it and caused injury to some Australian players and for some time after that there was this big fight over it. Nowadays the tactic has been resurrected, renamed, and is considered fair game. (If someone wants to tell us the name, I'm interested. It involves bowling at the batsman directly. Same thing you see in baseball actually where the pitcher tries to hit the batter to rifle him up a bit) We're in the same situation. You say it's unfair, I say it's not.

I'll tell you why I think you people that hate holes and call holing "noobish" are the ones behaving "noobish". Because it requires real skill, teamwork, and effort to defend against it. If you had that skill, you wouldn't complain about it. Those around here that have that skill generally don't complain about holes and/or defend it as a tactic. Those without, well, here you are I guess.

In any case, I think it's ironic that most of the people who do complain about holing have absolutely no problem going down the center on a bad grind and breaking into the fortress that way. What gives? What's the difference?

[wrtlprnft]

As a defender, holes don't threaten me all that much. Usually someone died for it, most times only one enemy is left, and I can survive that for an almost infinite amount of time. I don't let the guy box me into a 10m² box, that just won't happen.
It is trouble when there's more than two enemies left and they both manage to get through the hole. But most times they kill each other before the zone collapses, at least that's my experience.

[2020]

It's a team game.

holes are a team tactic
not an individual survival choice

it is high risk
because
1
you lose one of your team
2
you have to time the hole
so that the defender can't cover it in time
3
your teammates have to make use of it

and it is a sweeper's job to take care about using holes

if the team can't deal with holes even made on purpose.... then that's not a good team

compare holing to
when someone does a superb cut
locking defence into a tiny box

i have followed them in as sweeper to take up the slack
and the same can be done with holes

damned tricky for a hoofed player like me
but a joy to watch if it is a superb player
and there are plenty of you guys out there...

[Infamous]

Here's a scenario for everyone, especially kyle, how would you play this...

You're in midfield, your defense dies and an opponent beats you to the zone and creates a circle around (but inside) the zone. A teammate gets there before you and trys to stay in the edge of the zone but dies against the opponent's wall, creating a hole quite near you, see diagram





do you

a) Go through the hole and try to out sumo the attacker.

or

b) avoid the hole and keep going around the edge, even though there is very little chance of you keeping the zone alive.

[ed]

I don't think the defender is very good.
I'd go straight through that gaping hole, judging by his defence tactics shouldn't take long to destroy him. Get it over with quick.
Maybe it'll teach him to plug holes in future.

But then I get the cries of "OMG holer!!!". Ah well.

[meriton]

There seems to be the opinion that a goalie can not defend against people using holes. But he can. The usual result if I am holed is that I defend half the zone and call for my sweeper to get in the other half before the attacker can surround and thus defend it.

Given a resonably competent sweeper playing without ear-plugs (i.e. reacting to a team call in red), that works most of the time. From a game play point of view, this is by far more interesting than endless spiraling. That is why I like them.

However, regardless of personal preference, it is my understanding that you are permitted to use what the server admin enables. A player has no right to demand that the opponent plays the way he wants him to. That makes sense, since the server admin can be assumed to be impartial but a player can not.

[kyle]

i never have had that situation

when i see it hapen i'll decide then

[Infamous]

As I said to you in the server just now, it's a hypothetical question and it's actually very plausable that it could happen.

But the point of it was, would you rather use the hole and have a good chance of keeping the zone, or would you rather avoid the hole and almost certainly lose, while letting down you whole team?