OMG holer!!!

[Infamous]

Don't know if this is the right place but oh well...


In fortress, (specifically against a defense) why is holing looked down on so much? Whenever someone uses a hole, all you see is:
"OMG holer"
"noob holer"
"holers are molers" (?)
"holes are so lame"
"only noobs use holes"
and the list goes on.

but... WHY? what's wrong with using holes? they're part of the game, like grinding and braking. Afterall, using brakes gives you an advantage in some situations dont they? so why dont people complain about them?

Yes holing is easier than beating the DEF normally, but you still have to out sumo the defender, or kill them, or wait until a teammate arrives. A good defense won't be automatically lost because of a hole, especially if its 1 vs 1.

And there are people who actually avoid using holes on purpose (???), as if to say "look at me, i am so skilled because i went right past that hole and attacked as normal", and i can't help but think "IDIOT".
(I dont care how other people want to play, except when they are on my team).

Just before the itw, Ady made his server hole-less and it was a complete failure imo.

What's your opinion on holes?

[wrtlprnft]

/me agrees with all of the above.

[belenus]

Using holes is ok if someone made it by accident (ie. during an insuccessfull attack or the defender did it himself)

If your teammate made it on purpose for you to drive through, thats cheap...

[newbie]

i would say several players complain about it because they think fortress in some aspects is still a one-man-team game and using some moves against this concept seems not fair for them

but def is played by sweepers

and it is a sweeper's job to take care about using holes

if the team can't deal with holes even made on purpose.... then that's not a good team

for me there are no cheap tactics or boring defs

opponents can do whatever they want and that's ok for me, because i always assume and know that my team can win against anything anywhere, no matter what the enemies will do

[Van-hayes]

Well, personally I never use a hole unless the enemy team made it, not even if a teammate accidentally made one, mainly because I enjoy trying to get into the def without holes.

As to a team mate intentionally making a hole, that makes no sense to me, as you said its no guarantee you will win, but there is a guarantee you give the enemy 2 points and get at most 10 points if you kill him and take the zone, opposed to a max of 12 without a hole. And if you have 2 on 1, with a hole you even the odds to 1 on 1.

Anyway to use a hole or not is personal preference, so no one should get mad over it.

In fortress, (specifically against a defense) why is holing looked down on so much? Whenever someone uses a hole, all you see is:
"OMG holer"
"noob holer"
"holers are molers" (?)
"holes are so lame"
"only noobs use holes"
and the list goes on.

My Favorite is "Holes are for puusys and unskilled players."

[Infamous]

if it's 2 vs 1, then an intentional hole won't really help much against a good defender (and if it's a rubbish defender you wont need to hole anyway) because you still have to sumo him.

But for me, I always want my team to win, if it's an ITW match or just a 5 minute game on CT wild, I have to be on the winning team. Which is why it annoys me when my teammates purposely don't use them.

[Z-Man]

I understand Van's argument about the score donation to the enemy when you make a hole on purpose, but I still fail to see why doing any of the discussed behavior leads to the observed clamoring, as if you were shooting an unarmed orphan into the back.

And you forget the time factor. Three attackers can conquer a zone against one defender much faster if they make a hole on purpose. Meanwhile, the defender's team is putting pressure on the other zone, and getting the job done quickly may be essential for victory.

[Lackadaisical]

if it's 2 vs 1, then an intentional hole won't really help much against a good defender

This depends on how well the hole is executed, it isn't that hard (in theory) to coordinate an attack in a way that you create the hole a bit in front of the defender. With the speed gained by grinding the torpedo the one who enters the hole can take a large chunk of the zone or even kill the defender. I remember instances from some time ago where there were two of our team left and we just drove straight to the enemies zone grinding eachother, holed and killed the attacker with the speed advantage.

[Ricochet]

I guess most will never forget my insistent complaining about how bad holes were. Haha. However recently, particularly since the ITW I have actually noticed how many good, respected players use holes, and I admit, when defending (sometimes in a 4 on 1 situation) when someone holes it can get frustrating, as the defender basically has no chance. But as a defender I just get on with it, and particularly if it ends up one-on-one, as I play sumo anyway, I fair a reasonable chance.

And I will also use holes when in attack, provided its not about 5 on 1 in my teams favour, as its just a complete unfair advantage.

I suspect however that noone will really care what I've said, but tough shit

later

[Lucifer]

Well, I don't think holes are useful as a general purpose tactic anymore, but I think holing is still useful.

If your defense isn't very strong or the other team's offense is unusually strong, you need to get inside the other team's zone as quickly as possible. A hole made intentionally can force the other team to pull off some of their attackers. In this context, holing is a defensive move.

If two people have just grinding the daylights out of each other, one of them can make a hole and as Lack indicated, the other can take the zone quickly with his speed advantage. This assumes the defense hasn't completely setup yet, but it can work when the defense is setup.

If you have 3 or more attackers, a hole can put two attackers in the zone right away, and as z-man said, they can conquer the zone. More importantly, the attacker closest to the goalie attacks the goalie directly while the other attacker closes the hole behind them to prevent defenders from coming in.

In most other situations, I've found that a hole just brings the round to close faster but doesn't give the holing team an inherent advantage, i.e. the team that was holed has the same chance of winning that they hd before the hole for various reasons that are situation-dependent.

I agree completely with newbie about defending. It's not really the goalie's responsibility to close holes when he has sweepers--that's what sweepers are for. They need to be watching and closing the holes when they appear, or they need to be giving the goalie good straight walls to grind so the goalie can move faster and seal the holes himself. THey also need to be watching in case someone uses a hole because the best defense against a hole that's been used is to go in after the guy. THen you go in with a speed advantage (usually), throw a wall on the attacker's side that's away from the goalie, come back out the hole, and circle the zone as an outer defender. This will usually kill the attacker and defend the zone in a way that gives the goalie a chance to get straightened out afterwards. If your sweepers can do this and they're good at it, then when someone holes you, it's 4 free points, but you have to work for them.

[Infamous]

just as an update on the original post i made, since then I really paid attention whenever anyone holed and have come to an odd conclusion.

That is, better players hole, and weaker plays don't (when i say don't, i mean they will mock someone that does).

which may sound odd, but it seems very true. You rarely see the better/best players insult/moan/whinge when someone uses a hole, but if you go into ct wild (no offense to anyone who plays there, i myself play there a lot and love it) where there are more less skilled players than other servers, whenever someone uses a hole you get abuse. I would even go as far to say, the people who say "holing is for noobs" are generally the ones who, if you are deffending, you don't mind seeing them come to attack you.

I don't want to say that "all good players use holes and anyone who doesn't is a noob" because there are some very good players who will go past a hole and continue to attack normally, and there are a lot of "noobs" or new players, or just not-very-good players who use holes as they should.

I was just playing there in CT wild, and i saw a great one; (in bright red) "Holes: a gap in the defense used by noobs" by CT Kyle of all people.

and another i just heard was, "holing is boring" which is odd, because i thought that endlessly circling a defense is more boring than ending the round quickly.


I'm trying not to rant, i'm just a bit annoyed by people who complain about other people's playing styles, skills or lack of skills. Afterall, no one is perfect at the game.

[kyle]

I was just playing there in CT wild, and i saw a great one; (in bright red) "Holes: a gap in the defense used by noobs" by CT Kyle of all people.

thats me using 0xff0000

I used to use holes, But i stopped because of the following

I just think its a cheap way to play the game by using holes
i think you should have to work to make ground of the defender and not just cut in

I used enough and realized its unfair

if you use then on maps that zones deploy(chico's clover) instantly its just a cheap way to win. besides its usualy easy to get those without holeing.

I can cover most holes but if there on the other side there is no way to get to that without loosing a lot of ground

I will uses holes only if they are not in the defender.

Thats how i feal about holes

[Infamous]

fair enough kyle, if you don't like using holes then good for you, you play how you play i don't care. I do care when you (in bright red) say that holes are for noobs.

while we're talking about it, i dislike how you overuse the word noobs. Every 2 minutes you say "/me is surrounded by noobs"
a) everyone was a noob at some point
b) everyone has someone who is better than them, so insulting someone because they aren't as good as you is just retarded as there are plenty of people better than you who can easily call you crap. Remember there are lots of new players in ct wild (as its fun and different) and you calling them noobs all the time might even put them off playing the game.

go easy on the noobs.

[kyle]

Thats my favorite instant chat i made
a lot of the time i use it as a joke

but there are times that there is no one that is good on my team

lately i have had less and less time to play and i think back to the fun 3 Vs 3 all good players
a lot of the times lately there is 1 good team and 1 crappy team full of n00bs

now do not get me wrong in what i say because i do not mind n00bs that much i eaven have trained some n00bs its just getting to the point were there are too many n00bs on a server to teach and tell then what they could do better to improve

On another thought i do not think i have put a n00b up for a poll in a while.
now if someone is Tking or not grinding and they have been told about 3 times and there is a poll then i will kick that person.

ok now why am i saying n00b so much even here its there skill level easy way that everyone knows what it means.

I remember when i was a n00b no one really thought me how to play i just had to pick it up as i went i remember getting kicked 3 times before getting accepted by all(most) on CT wild. No there are too many n00bs to kick or tell what they are doing wrong. I will agree if you tell them most times they listen.

and the bright red i made it an instant it sticks out i like it almost all my instants are in color want me to change the color i will if that bothers you i just made it different from default thats all.

don't i also complement them what i use "only n00bs write in color all the time". you know not many n00b's know how to write in color.

I'll try to ease up on them when i made them all but the hole one it was a joke; now sometimes it is more real.

One more note i know there are better players than me after all i am currently only 6th in CT rank; but a n00b is only referred to as a beginner.

/me is a n00b at writing look how unorganized this post is

[anjori]

I just think its a cheap way to play the game by using holes
i think you should have to work to make ground of the defender and not just cut in

See, I've never understood this logic. Should we not use brakes or grinding (wouldn't want to have an unfair speed advantage), either? In a game--sports or otherwise--isn't the purpose to find and exploit weaknesses or "holes" in your opponents defense and, um, win? If I was watching a hockey or soccer game and a player purposely ignored an opening to keep his foolish pride, I would think he was a bloody idiot. If a goalie had a blind spot due to a teammate or opponent being in his line of vision and the opposing team refused to exploit it, I would ask why the hell they're even playing the game.

As someone who often defends (okay, not so much anymore), I think holes are fair game. You can't possibly cover them in every situation, but you do your best and be prepared at the possibility--some call it strategy. That's also why you deploy good team work and have sweepers and those who can assist when the defense is in trouble. Otherwise, should I also complain that it's unfair and a noob tactic for two opponents to attack me at once? Where does it end?

I've moved beyond the days where it was the first line of attack to deliberately make a hole or call for another team mate to do so, but if one presents itself, I'm sure as hell going to use it.

Holes are a part of the game and if the server admin decides to make it so they can't be used, that's their prerogative. Use them to your advantage, or don't; how you want to play is up to you. But quit crying about it when other people make use of them.