win the Tronic Spoon!

[Tank Program]

I think the moral is May is a bad month as it's the month leading up to or of exams for most people.

[2020]

But how do we know which team is to blame for not playing?

we could avoid all this
if there was no predetermined set play-offs
and instead...
did something along the lines of the seeded round
only knockout and not round-robin

[Lackadaisical]

Except that noone wants to play against the stronger teams in fear of being out of the competition after one round.

[2020]

2020, you reckon it can be done in 2 hours?
with 4 teams I think you're right, and it'll be a lot of fun.

phew
the word fun enters the multilogue...

You need to find out which teams want to enter first and go from there.
If you get 8 teams,

since we managed to get 8 teams for spoon
which has generated a lot of interest in new players...
i think it may be realistic to talk about a system dealing with upto 16 teams in a couple of months...

... only 4 of which take it seriously, then it'll very soon fall apart as members leave, lose members, etc.

fair
though if the players are serious
and the captains help their teams stick to the time-constraints
then the first round of 8 games can be played in 1/2 hour
the second round of 4 games in second 1/2 hour
the third round of 2 games in third 1/2 hour
and the fourth round -- the final -- in the final 1/2 hour
that is
players won't leave if their team is winning
and can obviously leave when they are out of the competition...

Then it would become frustrating and you'd have what the spoon is today. Except more people would be pissed off since they've set time aside for this.

unfair
the spoon has turned out the way it has
precisely because of the way we have organise it...
and despite my misgivings
i did my best within my team to make it work

Plus if it's self governed and there's noone to say "sorry, you can't get your team together, you're out" then it'll be a lot of fun if complications arise.

there are plenty of good people out there...
for example
the anarchic wanderers were happy about playing teams
with only two or three legitimate members
with zop happy to make up numbers...
and i think we are not the only team
who would be willing to split up its members
to enable the competition to move along nicely
or
invite a bunch of unteamed players along to be the fill-in pool
that can make up numbers on the day

come on
ed
all i am asking is that we give it a try...
if we allow ourselves the thought-experiment
i am sure you or i or anyone can come up with a flexible enough system
to cope with whatever happens on the night...

it is less about controlling every eventuality
but empowering us with a flexible enough system
to be able to deal with whatever happens on the day

i would love to try it
some other players have indicated they would love to
and if we did
and it worked
it would be one hell of a good time...

and it would be something that we could more easily reproduce...

[2020]

Except that noone wants to play against the stronger teams in fear of being out of the competition after one round.

true
thought about this
and yes this is a problem i haven't worked out for the spoon or next
but
for the final tronic cup
check out:
http://wiki.armagetronad.net/index.php/Ruminations
> why choose a better team?

for the next competition...
why don't we use the provisional placements from the seed round
and the discretion of the team-captains...

imagine
16 team captains
some will pair off because they already decided to before the event
and the longer captains wait
the fewer their choices
until eventually they may be the last two to face off...

place a very strict time-limit...
3 mins
so that if a captain doesn't set up a team
they are out...
sounds a bit harsh...
but imagine going back to your team and saying
"we are out because i couldn't set up a game"

hey
what if we had a simple interface
where a captain challenged upto three teams
and the first to respond is paired off...
if
at the end of the 3 mins limit
a team has been challenged and has not responded
they lose by forfeit...

again...
there are solutions all over the place if we just allow ourselves to think them up
and try them
just like new moves on the grid
with wingmen doublegrinding in the last few weeks
or vanhayes/psycho's/zops rapier-attack or tail-targetting technique...
the only difference is
this is a team-we-thing
not just an individual-i-thing

[Lucifer]

unfair
the spoon has turned out the way it has
precisely because of the way we have organise it...
and despite my misgivings
i did my best within my team to make it work

I told you at the beginning this would happen. Go run a tournament your way, show us. By all means. Show us what we already know. You keep beating on this dead horse, but have no experience outside what we just did to your name. I told you at the beginning people were going to forfeit, and many of us expressed a concern that the competition would wind down like this, and sure enough, we've worked to avoid it (well, you have, I didn't run out of steam, ran out of time).

You're starting to piss me off, 2020. You don't know what you're talking about, and worse, you're too arrogant to come and say so. Thank you for the spoon, no thanks for the shitty attitude.

[Lucifer]

Thought about something. BT, who's BT? Oh, 8T. Heh. I know I objected to them jumping in so late in the tournament, but they showed up to play in the first round of the playoffs and lost. It looks like MBC will advance, and Ni won't (most of my team that I've been able to talk to have expressed sadness that we haven't played, but haven't gone and tried to schedule, and I haven't nagged as much as I should, I suppose). I think 8T should take the fourth spot and play MBC in the second round of the playoffs. The winner of that game should play the winner of ?? vs CT for the win.

Any objections to that? Something just doesn't seem right that a team that showed up and got eliminated should remain eliminated when other teams advanced without even having to show up.

[Lackadaisical]

I think 8T should take the fourth spot and play MBC in the second round of the playoffs. The winner of that game should play the winner of ?? vs CT for the win.

Um.. and what about AW? or do you mean 'play AW in the second round', I really don't know if mbc would agree to that (although i'm sure AW wouldnt agree with what you said )

2020; i'll try to reply when time is a bit more sufficient

[Lucifer]

The point, lack, is that 8T should take a spot in the next round since they showed up. Who they play doesn't really matter so much to me, if y'all can agree on that point, anyway. I just suggested it because a partial suggestion usually gets ignored, but a complete suggestion gets listened to, even if it's mostly thrown out.

As for AW, I think they're supposed to play Formerly Elite, but Formerly Elite dropped out. So, they get a nod on into it? Hmmm, not sure if it winds up unbalanced at this point.

(kudos to whoever dreamed up Formerly Elite, was it you, lack?)

[2020]

You're starting to piss me off, 2020. You don't know what you're talking about, and worse, you're too arrogant to come and say so. Thank you for the spoon, no thanks for the shitty attitude.

unnecessary
lucifer
and i know this scares people
and it kind of makes the whole venture pointless...
it only works if people like the idea and try to come up with solutions...
it can be easily ****** up by anyone wishing to flog it...

i have experience outside this here game
if that is not too arrogant to say
and yes
i am humble enough to admit
i don't really know what i am talking about...
i just like the idea of it...
call me a dreamer... which is far different from arrogant...

and...
i would rather you took your attitude out of this forum
and onto the grid...
you take a dislike to me...
then just leave it for the grid...
let's try to organise it better so that we can meet
hopefully in the finals...

and
regarding the spoon
yes i was partly responsible for the initial start-up
but it was you
i remember
who put your weight behind it
and which made it actually get off the ground...
which i think deserves more credit

i have certain skills
systems and abstraction
and you have others
precision and persistence

let's get this straight
as far as i am concerned
we are on the same team

[2020]

You keep beating on this dead horse, but have no experience outside what we just did to your name.

sorry....
what does this mean?
what did you do to my name?
i remember pimp masquerading...

[Lucifer]

Not really, 2020. It happened like this:

1. 2020 creates the spoon as a one-day event and asks for suggestions and discussion, the final event being decided by consensus.

2. People get interested, 2020 says "this is beyond my organizational ability" or whatever. It's in this thread, first or second page, maybe third.

3. People talk about it and come to a consensus that is not a one-day event. 2020 objects.

4. 2020 uses all available means of communication to make his objections to the consensus he solicited in the first place.

5. SPOON is the most successful arma tournament in 2 years (that being about the time Lucifer has been watching such things). 2020 blames failure on the consensus that was reached.

The dead horse you're beating is the one-day event. So do your one-day event and see how many people show up. You're determined to learn this lesson the hard way, in the face of numerous people (besides myself) telling you they've already learned it and teh results. So go learn it. Knock yourself out. Can't stop a kid from burning his fingers on the stove if he really wants to, you know.

[gnorty]

You're starting to piss me off, 2020. You don't know what you're talking about, and worse, you're too arrogant to come and say so. Thank you for the spoon, no thanks for the shitty attitude.

I am appalled!

This is 2020s first attempt at organising an event, between people he barely knows in a game he is relatively new to, and by your own admission it has been the most successful to date.

It has generated a lot of interst from new players, who, if they were integrated into a viable team, would probably be more likely to stay around.

So this warrants a personal attack? Certain other people on this board have opinions which they vocalise, solicit opinions on and then argue against the opinions offered, yet somehow their argument is OK and 2020's is not?

I'm not sure why 2020 has pissed you off in this way, and I probably don't want to. I do know that the one thing that everyone agrees on is that a working tournament could only be good for the game. It seems to me is that 2020's biggest crime is working very hard to make it happen in the face of the long termer's negativity.

[Lucifer]

Ok, quick explanation. He asked for a general consensus and help, and we gave him that. Then he proceeded to bitch about it endlessly, while the rest of us decently left it alone and went about our business. I gave a summary of it, the details are here in this thread and also on the wiki for anyone who really wants to go through it. But basically, if you ask for something and then you get it, "thank you" is preferred to bellyaching.

We'll talk about my language some other time, but since my modus operandi is to try approaching the subject politely a minimum of 2 times, you can be sure that that part is already past.

[Lucifer]

Forked the "lessons learned" discussion. If y'all don't really want it forked, I can just repost my post over there back here or whatever. Just thought it'd be nice to get that discussion out of where people are still trying to finish up the spoon itself.

http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopi ... 7317#47317