Fortress Opening: On the proper use of double-grinding

[Lucifer]

Yeah, no matter what you do, there's just no substitute for a good break.

[2020]

the voice of sense:
newbie
thanks

the trick is
organising it

so
if you are interested
fe-clan need a punch bag to practice against
and there are some players who are volunteering
me being one of them...
of course
i practice tai chi
and i haven't told fe-clan that it is going to be more like shadow-boxing:
all they shall find
are the hard-walls that are our shadow-trails...
hehehhhe

so
please
get involved
and we can put the test this doublegrinding rubbish...

[meriton]

A few miscellaneous points:

1) If we want to continue this discussion on a theoretical basis, I think we should start backing it with some math, otherwise the set of possible-looking scenarios is just too large because we can not quantify acceleration. For instance, I think double grinding is not worth it if not done to enter a tunnel, so I think the outer guys in Lucifer's Hannibal tactic would be better off by grinding normally.

2) The requirement that the double-grinder's outer neighbour may not grind too tightly is obsolete. It is possible to use rubber in the second 180 of the double grind to get close enough.

3) Since the distance to impact area has changed with the new settings on CVS fortress, the usefulness of double grinding has to be reassesed, especially the issue about the center player's speed loss.

4) I agree with lucifer that a double grinder directly going for the enemy zone is prone to be surrounded unless he manages to obliterate or box in most enemies on that side the acceleration lane. Yes, the latter requires that the enemy offense is surprised by your maneuver or can not respond to it in a coordinated manner. However, even if that isn't the case and the double grinder ends up driving to the rim wall like usual, nothing important is lost.


Finally, I still think that the moves I outlined for the center are as safe and permit him to be nearly as effective as in a standard grind.

And I look forward to test double grinding on the grid.

[2020]

3) Since the distance to impact area has changed with the new settings on CVS fortress, the usefulness of double grinding has to be reassesed, especially the issue about the center player's speed loss.

really?
what's the change?
closer or further?
and why has there been a change...?
i saw no discussion about it...
did zman just decide?
i trust him
but i would like to know why...

[meriton]

This was announced in this forum->Servers->Test Servers.

[~*PsYkO*~]

Double grinding sucks if you are the center player because...

...you barely get speed at all... (especially if there is only 1 double grinder, 2 MIGHT be able to compensate but only if they do it fast enough, but thats not that case in 99% of the time, might be the ppl are just not skilled enough or the double grinding sucks, or both)
...because of that you are too slow when its time to break off...
...and you are either dead because the other team can pick on you easily...
...or are just useless because you have to maze around a little and wait for walls to disappear.

This isn't true at all. I encourage players to double bind against my wall if I'm center because they overlap me and im gaining speed from two walls.

This is a fact..and if you don't want to belive it than the next time you are center and a person is double backing..instead of whining..make yourself useful and try going down the center

[~*PsYkO*~]

And I've seen a couple people mentioning that they will TK a double binder at any chance. Seriously stop being such knuckle heads you don't deserve to play fortress if you TK over a petty strategy..

[belenus]

And I've seen a couple people mentioning that they will TK a double binder at any chance. Seriously stop being such knuckle heads you don't deserve to play fortress if you TK over a petty strategy..

If your DG gets me killed (when I'm center) every single round because

1. I am too slow and the other team just picks me out
2. you break off too late and just center player crash into enemies walls

I tell you to stop DG... if you don't, I'll try to kill you or tell people to grind hard one me, ie. use rubber to get you killed.

I would even trying to vote you out if you don't change your tactic and it gets someone killed every round, because in my eyes thats intentional TK.

I consider killing a crappy DGer a strategy to ensure the teams survival and maybe even a chance to win the round, because most DBers just hurt the team more than they help.

Yes, it works, somtimes, but mostly it does't and most players just don't get it right, actually most people already have problems with the break off. Either turning way to early, got too late.

Problem with DG is, if you turn before center can turn, you HAVE TO leave space for center player to go, if any teammate dies because of your DG... your DG sucks.

[Lucifer]

Yep, you kill the doublegrinder for the same reason you kill people who don't grind at all, or you break early to kill the guy who won't break at all. The team's better off without him.

Me and some other players agreed to start kicking double-grinders when they don't stop after being asked to stop.

[newbie]

2. you break off too late and just center player crash into enemies walls

this has nothing to do with double grinding

Problem with DB is, if you turn before center can turn, you HAVE TO leave space for center player to go, if any teammate dies because of your DB... your DB sucks.

you do not have to leave space

no one is saying that center is THE ONE that should attack first

if DG can close 2 players, that's ok, center waits a few seconds and plays mid-def or goes easily for the zone

if i am the center, there is no problem for me, i can wait and then go back, especially when DG with DG+1 are already attacking the zone

[Phytotron]

And I've seen a couple people mentioning that they will TK a double binder at any chance. Seriously stop being such knuckle heads you don't deserve to play fortress if you TK over a petty strategy..

Interesting. This dude is a hypocrite both on and off the grid. He TK'ed me the other day because—I don't even remember why; it was so trivial. When I called him on it he laughed (or lol'd, as it were) and said, "yep" and some other crap. It wasn't an isolated incident, either; seems to be his M.O. At any rate, "psyko" is a perfect example of the ilk of snotty little kids I described in the other thread, and half the reason I don't play there.

[gnorty]

Heh,

forgot about this thread, I had a story for you all.

I was playing on one of the other fortresses a few days back. There were 2 on each team, I was playing "centre" (of course you cant have centre in a 2 man team, but, ya know...)


anyway, my teammate was trying to double grind. extremely annoying, so I pointed out that he was achieving nothing in a 2 man team except leaving us me horribly exposed.

He ignored my pleas, so after 5-6 rounds of this I adopted an alternative strategy - If I die by being slow at the front, I may as well break early, go to the wall and gain my own speed.

so next round, he does his double wiggle, and emerges from hie 3 inch tunnel created to find a vasst empty space, and me disappearing off over his right shoulder.

and what did he say?

"Stop doing that, I am dying from going to slow"

ahem!

[meriton]

A double grind, executed as I described at the start of this thread, results in trails like this:

Code: Select all

double grinder -------+
                      |+---- center
                      ||
dg's wingman   ------+||+--- center's wingman
                     ||||

Belenus wrote:

If your DB gets me killed (when I'm center) every single round because

1. I am too slow and the other team just picks me out
2. you break off too late and just center player crash into enemies walls

2. seems impossible to me.

It is obvious that double grinding is a bad opening if not done right. However, I started this thread to discuss double grinding done in a specific manner because I think it had potential ("had" because it works less well with the new spawn points in my experience). Obviously, that distinction was not understood by many people posting here.

[Lucifer]

Definitely seems to be the rules, rather than the exception, for double-grinders. They break too late, then kill themselves, leaving the center in a pretty bad spot.

It's harder to break well when you're double-grinding precisely because of the speed. It's even harder for the guy next to you to break, because he has no idea how fast you will be going, what you will do after you break, and if you'll even survive, because if you don't survive, he has to cover that side.

Everybody has to work work work just so your lame ass can go fast and die in the first 5 seconds of every round. Tell me how that's a) fair and b) teamwork?

THe only argument that's ever given in favor of double-grinding is "it gives me lots of speed". That's a worthless argument. Tell me what it does for the team, if anything.

[meriton]

Whom are you adressing? In case you ask me, I have given my reasons above. In short, that extra speed can neutralize one or more enemy attackers on a regular basis without impairing the executing team in a similar manner.