Devloping an Improved tron (was:GLTron)

[subby]

GLTron

http://www.gltron.org/screenshots.php

I think looks a lot better than does armargetron, but the "game play" IMHO in no where as good as arma. Specifically rubber, lack of camera setup options, inability to really tell how close you are to a wall b4 closing and lack of network games.

Would it not be cool if GLTron could be changed to have ARmas play characteristics with GLTrons look?

And use it to log onto the armagetron network.

It's apitty these guys dont work together to form a better tron game ?

What do you guys (and gals and misc.) think ?

Should we look at its code and improve it rather than arma?

*steps away and lets grenade blow*

[Prey4Me]

doesn't look that bad, i like the idea of those evil tron vehicles hovering above you

[Marrow]

There are things about GLTron that I'd like to see in Armagetron.

For instance, the music. It's so upbeat and energetic.

But my favorite thing about GLTron is the map in the corner. You know where people are.

So, I think it would be a great idea to integrate both programs on some level. Ok, who is going to talk to Manuel? lol

[Tank Program]

Hmm... I can't do that. Maybe we start a petition for a merger?

[n54]

since both projects are open source (they're even both sourceforge projects) just borrow whatever bit of code you want - however i'm not sure how much you'ld truly want to take from gltron... the beauty of armagetron is it's simplicity - it's not gizmo-bloated (and that's also why armagetron has such solid gameplay imo).

[subby]

*steps away and lets grenade blow*

I'm all for pedicting strong feelings on subject matters

All feelings aside, both games have advantages and disadvantages. And I'm all for finding the advantages of both and implementing them if possible.

Thats just my HO

[Marrow]

About coding...

I'd love to start work on a new tron game, rather than modifying manuel's armagetron. It's like all the work done modifying armagetron will be for little gain because it will never be ours. He'll make a new release and all is lost. The ideas of simply telling Manuel to include new code, while a good idea and noble, is unrealistic because he does not answer his e-mails.

Plus, we'll always lack a true grasp of the armagetron source code, since we didn't create it.

"What I cannot create, I do not understand."

I think there is a lot of truth to this saying when it comes to programming with Manuel's code.

So, I'd love to see a new project. Since the licensing restrictions are so lax on both games, we could mold gltron and armagetron into one and give both manuel and the people of gltron credit in the readme file.

An example that comes to mind is when people kept working on making improvements to IRCII, then finally the people made so many improvements, they just decided to give it a new name, BitchX.

[Tank Program]

Ok Marrow, go ahead . We'll all watch and support you, but we are (I am) utterly clueless as to go about something like that. Modifying code is as far as I go. Who knows, maybe we can apply to take over Armagetron now? It's been fer frickin ever since anything last happened there...

[Marrow]

lol, actually, here are my thoughts on that.

I'm at work now so this is all of the top of my head (just a warning so this could be wrong, but it's right in theory).

We could slowly walk through main() in armagetron and trace each function call and come up with an idea of which areas of armagetron are strong, which we'll keep, and which areas are depreciated.

Then, we'll do the same for main() in gltron, however, we take the great functions written for gltron and copy and paste them into armagetron. We'll have to modify some variables and make some new declarations, adjusting the functions, classes, etc., but it's entirely possible.

We may have to include some new c libraries, as well as outside dependencies (currently SDL, SDL_image, png, jpeg.h, etc.), but this too is possible. If there is enough interest, I can run CVS on my computer so that we can all work on a project like this. We could all submit changes to the source code and through CVS we'd all have access to our latest changes. Each person could choose a specific area of the game to improve and spend their time working on it, i.e. graphics, chat, spam protection, HUD, etc. It would be a team of 4 or 5 persons, or maybe more, working on a project. I'd even give you an e-mail account of your choosing: <yourname>@seteclab.org. We could have a webpage on the new game, etc. Make it real nice. Anyway...

Of course, if there is no interest, it would be impossible for one person (even Manuel had help) to do it. So, I wouldn't take up that challenge.

[n54]

ok this needs a reply... it's not a rant, just a reply reflecting my own opinions.

It's like all the work done modifying armagetron will be for little gain because it will never be ours. He'll make a new release and all is lost. The ideas of simply telling Manuel to include new code, while a good idea and noble, is unrealistic because he does not answer his e-mails.

sorry but this is just not true. "ours"??? it's already ours!!! the source is gnu gpl = you can do whatever with it as long as you accredit the originator & don't try to restrict the code or "demand money". you guys should seriously read the gnu gpl license (you are legally bound by it wheter you read it or not).

since you/we aren't accredited developers on the project the only way for our contribution is to send Manuel the parts of the code we have changed - it's his decision if he wants to include it or not, if he doesn't you/we are free to make our own version (we are free to do this in any case as long as we abide by the gnu gpl). if the changes make sense to him he will include them, if after more contact he trusts you then you will most likely become a developer. if he is away for a long time i'd recommend a project takeover (it is not infrequent for takeovers to happen, 1-person projects suffer a high rate of burnout)

another possible solution is to take over the existing project, i've had to do this (even though i shouldn't have as my time/capacity is kind of limited) with the project i'm currently "owning" at sourceforge. you have to participate in sourceforge to do this of course, and you have to submit a request for support stating why you want to take over.

Plus, we'll always lack a true grasp of the armagetron source code, since we didn't create it.

i can't believe you said that, not really. but maybe i can understand you... hmm i don't know what experiences you have but you saw what happened with something as 'simple' as the tournaments? so... here you have a guy making a game basically all on his own & it's his first major project so the code is atrocious, yes, it's all spagetti and he has said so himself - but it works better than any competition at what is most important: gameplay! so instead of figuring out the code and turning a diamond in the rough into a shining piece of excellent crystal clear code you want to start from scratch... (reinventing a wheel and making your own mistakes) i only say good luck to you and i hope you succeed - if it's better than armagetron i will play it

"What I cannot create, I do not understand."

i like Feynman, i like Eric Drexler, i sometimes drop by Foresight.org

I think there is a lot of truth to this saying when it comes to programming with Manuel's code.

yes i sympathise. the point with the gnu gpl license in the first place is to modify, recreate, and improve freely on the code.

So, I'd love to see a new project. Since the licensing restrictions are so lax on both games, we could mold gltron and armagetron into one and give both manuel and the people of gltron credit in the readme file.

nice, it's a massive undertaking, but nice - please make it a sourceforge project. however calling gnu gpl "lax" is weird, gnu gpl is fair not lax.

An example that comes to mind is when people kept working on making improvements to IRCII, then finally the people made so many improvements, they just decided to give it a new name, BitchX.

ok, sounds like codesplitting (=really bad) this often kills not only one project but many as each programmer wants his own version (think about the former *nix wars). i'm the acting project administrator of Streamripper and i see how devestating this can be, sourceforge is filled with 1-programmer projects who get stuck in the mud, it's a pity if that happens to "the tron's". sometimes codesplitting is kinda "good" but most often not.

my opinions:
- cooperation makes stronger (linux developers didn't make their seperate linux'es, instead they competed at making the different parts best)
- clear code and "over the top" commenting is vital (commenting never bloats a program as you should all know) Linus Thorvalds did this and attributes much of Linux's success to this

[Tank Program]

Well... Looking back @ armagetron's activity http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/in ... up_id=6185 you can see that this has been the longest period with out development since the game got popular. That is, 7 months. Mean while, we are a group of relatively skilled programmers who are willing to dedicate time to this and have already started work on various features- we are starting to split the code and this is not good. Z-man has dropped off the end of the earth. (Maybe he died some how? Does anyone close sourceforge accounts when you are dead?) That would explain the long period of inactivity, but we shoul al hope against that. Still, I think we have cause to take over Armagetron. A) We're dedicated fans. B) We've already started modifying code. C) We have enough free time to actually update some stuff at least once a month. D) We're positive we're not dead. E) All of us can't die at once. F) Z-man doesn't respond to emails. G) Probably some more really good reasons. I say we should work on forming a letter to ask to take over Armagetron. All of us who are willing to work on devel sign it and then maybe we can have it to work on. The code is not so bad, even tho there are a lot of circles. It is reasonably well documented too. Who's up for trying to take over?

[Marrow]

sorry but this is just not true. "ours"??? it's already ours!!! the source is gnu gpl = you can do whatever with it as long as you accredit the originator & don't try to restrict the code or "demand money". you guys should seriously read the gnu gpl license (you are legally bound by it wheter you read it or not).

I read the GNU GPL long ago and am very familiar with it. However, the code is not ours. It still belongs to a person. That is why it stipulates that you must give credit to the codes creator. That, in fact, makes it Manuel's code, not ours.

since you/we aren't accredited developers on the project the only way for our contribution is to send Manuel the parts of the code we have changed - it's his decision if he wants to include it or not, if he doesn't you/we are free to make our own version (we are free to do this in any case as long as we abide by the gnu gpl).

Correct. Hence, my suggestion to take the best of armagetron and gltron and mold them into something new.

i don't know what experiences you have but you saw what happened with something as 'simple' as the tournaments? so... here you have a guy making a game basically all on his own & it's his first major project so the code is atrocious, yes, it's all spagetti and he has said so himself - but it works better than any competition at what is most important: gameplay!

I agree. Armagetron is a great game and Manuel did fine work for the most part. It has the best gameplay of any tron game.

so instead of figuring out the code and turning a diamond in the rough into a shining piece of excellent crystal clear code you want to start from scratch... (reinventing a wheel and making your own mistakes)

This is incorrect. Nowhere did I state I was going to start from stratch. I've talked about using armagetron and gltron code to make another tron. If I were to start from stratch, I'd use neither and just start writing.

i only say good luck to you and i hope you succeed - if it's better than armagetron i will play it

Sarcasm?

i like Feynman, i like Eric Drexler, i sometimes drop by Foresight.org

Cool.

yes i sympathise. the point with the gnu gpl license in the first place is to modify, recreate, and improve freely on the code.

I agree.

nice, it's a massive undertaking, but nice - please make it a sourceforge project. however calling gnu gpl "lax" is weird, gnu gpl is fair not lax.

Lax in a good way. Possible misunderstanding here.

ok, sounds like codesplitting (=really bad) this often kills not only one project but many as each programmer wants his own version (think about the former *nix wars). i'm the acting project administrator of Streamripper and i see how devestating this can be, sourceforge is filled with 1-programmer projects who get stuck in the mud, it's a pity if that happens to "the tron's". sometimes codesplitting is kinda "good" but most often not.

I have seen this before, that is why I clearly stated that I would not work on this if I were the only person doing it. It would need to be a group effort.

my opinions:
- cooperation makes stronger (linux developers didn't make their seperate linux'es, instead they competed at making the different parts best)

I agree. That is why I specifically stated that one person would work on spam protection, another person would work on HUD, another on chat, so on and so forth.

I think n54 misunderstood my post or read my post quickily.

[n54]

it doesn't quite work that way, but very close

1. talk to the other developers already on the project! http://www.sourceforge.net/project/memb ... up_id=6185 (maybe they know something we don't)
2. all interested sign up as users at sourceforge.net
3. talk to each other to find out how many of you (as sourceforge users) want the project to be taken over
4. 1 - one - person has to take over the project singlehandedly, this is the person submitting the request for support/takeover (i can guide you through that part of the process when you/we get there)
5. if this 1 person gets the project he becomes acting project administrator and "official owner" and can add the others as developers. the old developers wont disappear if this is done rightly (which is good)
6. work away

i'm all for this if it's neccesary

*feels like a midwife* lol

edit: no sarcasm intended marrow - i just got a bit scared because a lot of ppl usually mean something slightly different that what you actually meant, so you could say i misunderstood you - anyway we had a very healthy clarification

and to the two things that might still be unclear:
- yes i agree that Manuel still has the copyright, nothing will ever change his copyright on his original work (or ours for what we contribute). the choice of copyright license is gnu gpl which gives it some special properties (for example it's next to impossible to change from gnu gpl to a more restrictive copyright). debating "his", "mine", "ours" etc. for open source is kind of challenging though since anyone can use or duplicate it as long as they abide by gnu gpl
- i misunderstood you completely on the "from scratch" stuff

[Marrow]

It's good to know that we can have healthy discussions when necessary. However, we will agree to disagree on some matters/issues.

This is the whole issue I've been driving at: Manuel will not respond to e-mail...lol. There is no way to submit code or otherwise.

I posted what I posted because without a method of making official changes to Armagetron, the game will never progress. It will stay the same and we'll be stuck with the same bugs. A new distro of tron must be made if there is to be progression.

The exception to this would be if Manuel suddenly started accepting e-mail, lol.

Your discussion about sourceforge begs the question: if a project manager and game creator abandons a project, does that mean another can step in and take it over (without the creator's permission)?

Never worked on sourceforge before, btw. Although, I have coded c and c++ and other languages for awhile in both *nix and windows.

EDIT: I am very excited to help with armagetron developement, or tron development overall, so I welcome all suggestions. Specifically, I thank n54 for his opinions and candor. Programming projects do better as the number of suggestions on game improvement and development organization increase.

[n54]

Your discussion about sourceforge begs the question: if a project manager and game creator abandons a project, does that mean another can step in and take it over (without the creator's permission)?

what happens is that the sourceforge staff tries to get hold of the present administrator/owner independently, and they review the project & other internal stuff.

if they don't get hold of the current owner they will very likely give it over to you (they don't kill off projects others want to continue developing). the current owner will have no say in this as he/she is incommunicado

if they do get hold of the owner they ask him what he/she feels. i haven't experienced this myself but he can contest the takeover or approve it and in turn one can attempt a "hostile takeover" <-- sounds messy, haven't heard of this ever happening, usually either the owner is happy to let someone else take over or everybody else is happy to keep him as owner (the owner kinda get's a "bump" and the project is rejuvinated)

sourceforge says this process can take weeks - it took two weeks in my case (streamripper)

edit: i agree wholeheartedly with marrow, good stuff

i'm not an experienced programmer but i still have experience with sourceforge (mostly their regulations and webhosting/updating/*extencive use of puffy*), i would be interested in joining in a small capacity (i really should be updating and working on the the streamripper stuff rather than sit here right now but... lol). it has a lot to do with my health and it has to get better sometime so...