The Fortress

[gnorty]

I dunno about holes myself. My personal view is that 2 attackers working from outside can more reliably win by squeezing the goalie to death than by sacrificing one and the other jumping into a lottery.

Having said that, if a teammate accidentally crashes, it is a shame to waste a good hole. And if I crash accidentally, it is a good thing to claim "torpedo"

[Lucifer]

I'm mostly in agreement, gnorty. Goalies have gotten really good, so just having a hole and walking in is no longer a guarantee of victory, not like it used to be anyway.

But if there are three attackers, the ideal situation is for two to grind on either side of one, one makes a hole, and two get in. They only have to survive for a very little while.

The other thing about holes is that a secondary defender (like myself) might go in the hole after you and block you from being able to maneuver. I've killed many an attacker that way. The trick is to go in the hole on the side of the attacker's wall that is opposite your goalie. Makes a bit of a mess you have to clean up, though, and some of you have seen 2 players go back to back defending the zone after something like this, but it's a whole lot of fun.

Better than winning by storming the zone and owning the goalie, I'd rather win by sumo-ing inside the zone with a co-defender. It's harder, and much more satisfying.

[Fonkay]

vanhayes was there, but it was everyone in the room pretty much. I accidently died while attacking, and someone yelled at me and told me that I wasn't aloud to makes holes. I told him that it was an accidental death, but holes are a stratagy and part of the game. Then vanhayes piped in with his "holes are for (kitty cats)" instant chat. and then everyone started ganging up on me. I promptly left.
Not a big deal, just wondering if I missed the memo that said "All strategy and teamwork of any kind is considered lame and will not be tolerated."

Also, I don't understand why there is still a instant win in Fortress.

[Lucifer]

I think the instant win is to break stalemates.

Yeah, you know, I haven't seen a lot of people hating holes, I've only seen vanhayes, so maybe this is a new development?

Not that I care, I'll keep making them and using them. I also go for the CoolZone. The person who does these things gives a tactical advantage to himself and his team.

[2020]

best holes?
when you have outflanked the enemy
bearing down on his zone with the goalie's single wall left

it should be a matter of obvious play
with following teamplayers looking out for leader's sacrifice

when i works
it works smooth and sweet

other team doesn't know what hit them

[meriton]

I find it really lame that people try to change the rules to compensate for their inability to play. I find it even lamer that they do so by harrassing people who disagree. (BTW, the people who are silent typically don't care ... so if some players make a lot of noise, the majority needn't agree).

In effect, it is simple: If it were not intended that holes are used, they would be disabled, wouldn't they? Similarly, if winzones were not intended to be used, the would be disabled, too, wouldn't they?

Both are there to make the game more interesting. Without holes, it would be next to impossible to take a good defenders fortress, and even if you suceed, it will take an eterntiy, during which half the players are bored. Even aside the stalemate aspect, they add variety to the game and require skill to use and to defend against.

Winzones are there because they are neccessary to break the stalemates that are caused because a weak attacker is 1 on 1 against a strong goalie. The attacker knows he'll loose it he attacks, so he just hangs around close to the fortress. The defender knows that if he engages the attacker, the attacker will probably survive and take the zone. Also, going for the other zone results in the attacker taking the defender's zone. So all he can do is defend. And defend. And ...

If both players are smart and don't want to loose, this will go on indefinitely. It is arguable that a good position for the winzone is subject to tweaking (personally I liked the old placement better than the new one) but abandoning winzones is no solution at all.

So I, too, use both holes and winzones - and silence guys complaining about it.

[Lucifer]

Heh, actually, I've been working on ways to open up the zone to the attacker as a counter to the winzone. I'll go for the zone, so I assume that any attacker will go for it too if I keep them out long enough, and I've gotten to where I can gain ground against most attackers, but also most attackers are wary of a number of traps the goalie can set. So it's a new trap, really. The trick is to be able to follow your tail indefinitely in tight quarters, so you open the zone slowly. First give him a quarter of it, then reconfigure your wall so you're still chasing your tail. Then shrink yourself in a bit, giving him up to a third, and reconfigure so you're still chasing your tail well. Then give him a little more...

At this point the whole zone usually becomes very tempting and you'll hve a number of trapping opportunities you didn't have before. Also, since you've carefully planned your setup, you can chase your tail longer than the attacker can chase his, and you don't have to leave the zone to keep chasing yours, while he does have to leave the zone.

Who's going to go for the winzone when the defender's zone is opening up? I usually won't... (this tactic may not work against me, those of you who've seen me recently might have noticed I attack the zone in a similar fashion, with the intention of being able to maze indefinitely against a defender who probably can't)

[MaZuffeR]

I don't see anything bad with holes, they are a part of the game. I seldom make them myself, usually only against defenders that make boxes with no gap between the bike and tail (like radian) and only if it's a good player that will get through the hole. And if it's only the goalie left I see no need to make a hole, you can just wait until the goalie makes a mistake and you get inside the zone, no point in giving the other team 2 points for free.

And the winzone, I don't use it, but I can't blame anyone else for using it, it's a part of the game. What I don't like is when I'm defending and the attacker(s) just wait for the winzone and doesn't even try to take the zone. Last week I had a nice fight with someone (forgot who it was), the round took 299 seconds


And finally a trick from my book (ok I don't have a book, but anyway). It's called "How to get past a midfield def". It has worked everytime I haven't killed myself doing it. The midfield defenders usually do a wall the goes from side to side. So when you get to his wall go the opposite direction of the defender, leave enough space between your own and his wall. When he turns around, turn around yourself and go between your wall and his, but leave enough space for one more turn. When the defender turns around a second you do the same and you should have enough speed to get to the zone. Attached a picture since my description isn't the best one, the defenders wall (red) isn't correct, but you should get the point.

[Lucifer]

That's a neat trick, but it takes time to run it.

You don't really think all of us mid-field defenders try to stop you from approaching, do you? I have a strong preference to help the goalie close to his wall. It's dangerous if the goalie doesn't know me, but besides being more fun, I have many surfaces against which to throw down traps. So I only try to stall attackers in midfield for extra time, otherwise I'm trying to direct their approach to my zone to be favorable to me instead of them.

(granted, occasionally I have to wing it, but that's fine)

[2020]

i like the idea of playing around with different launches
however it is difficult to set up
with the currents start-up settings

we know about the usual line-up
and the missile
well
how about the fork:
three straight
three left
and three right
from the start

sounds like there are holes left and right
but these can be covered with mazing from inside players

this should leave an interesting space in midfield
which might completely confuse the opponents
(
as well as the side attempting the fork
)

i have suggested it a few times
but found that players are often a little reluctant to try new things
especially since a team consists of a mixture of in/experienced players

perhaps i will have to wait until the team set-up evolves
when there are enough players to pick teams
and we have some kind of league or tournament...

[Lucifer]

The problem with 3 straight, 3 left, and 3 right from the start is that 3 + 3 + 3 = 9, there's never a team that big. Also, when the three that go straight end up in the middle, what happens? They have to turn anyway.

A similar setup happens when you have a smooth break on a big team already. Only, no holes at all. When I look at the break in my hud map, it looks like a big fork.

I'm afraid there's only one launch that works, but you might come up with running patterns, like they have in football, that people can run after the break to bring the team to a certain configuration. The catch is, the longer it takes to setup, the deeper the other team will penetrate before you launch your attack.

I'm interested in trying different launches, I just suspect there aren't any others.

I'd like to see someone do a layered defense. You know, 1 inner goalie, then everyone lines up in concentric circles from him, where the second layer goalie is close in enough to follow his own tail. The third layer would be two people following each other's tails. The idea is to never leave a gap. Then, as much as feasible, let the other team into the layers and reconfigure each layer to accomodate one or two enemies in the middle of each layer. Then squeeze.

I'm interested in this last bit because just last night I did it, sorta. It was an inner/outer defense, and I worked myself between the two. The rest of the teams were occupied, so it was just me against two of them. Because of how the circles lined up, neither could seal me, there was always room on one side or the other whenever one of them made an attempt, and I was following my tail, so even when one of them grinded against my wall, by the time I reached it my tail had receded. And I kept circling in, compressing the goalie. It was really fun, but not a tactic I'd recommend.. It's a "first one to screw up loses" tactic, and if you're likely to be the first to screw up, you should do something else.

[MaZuffeR]

That's a neat trick, but it takes time to run it.

You don't really think all of us mid-field defenders try to stop you from approaching, do you? I have a strong preference to help the goalie close to his wall. It's dangerous if the goalie doesn't know me, but besides being more fun, I have many surfaces against which to throw down traps. So I only try to stall attackers in midfield for extra time, otherwise I'm trying to direct their approach to my zone to be favorable to me instead of them.

(granted, occasionally I have to wing it, but that's fine)

It doesn't actually take that much time, or I should say I haven't come up with a faster way if the midfield def just tries to keep me from the zone.

IMO the function of a midfield def is to keep the attackers away from the zone for as long as possible. You can't take over the zone if you're not even close to it. When I play midfield def with a good goalie I usually try to keep the first (ie. the first one that tries to get to our zone) attacker from the zone for as long as possible until there is two other attackers against the goalie. Then I move closer to the goalie and try to kill some of the attackers.

[Lucifer]

It's not a question of how much absolute time it takes, see, I'm looking over my shoulder at the goalie. After the break, the goalie has to set up, right? So I want to make sure nobody comes near the zone until he's setup, best I can.

I have to agree with your idea of the midfield defender, I'm not a very good midfield defender. I can be the goalie's nearby assistant just fine, and I can attack just fine, and I can play goalie from time to time. midfield defense, hmmm... I do better when someone else does that and I can support him either as rear guard for my own attackers or front guard for the goalie.

[MaZuffeR]

It's not a question of how much absolute time it takes, see, I'm looking over my shoulder at the goalie. After the break, the goalie has to set up, right? So I want to make sure nobody comes near the zone until he's setup, best I can.

Yes, but most goalies make the box bigger and bigger until someone comes to the zone, so the faster you get there the smaller the area the goalie covers.

I have to agree with your idea of the midfield defender, I'm not a very good midfield defender. I can be the goalie's nearby assistant just fine, and I can attack just fine, and I can play goalie from time to time. midfield defense, hmmm... I do better when someone else does that and I can support him either as rear guard for my own attackers or front guard for the goalie.

Very few people are good midfield defenders, many don't even try, they just stay close to the goalie and try to kill attackers. I would say it's the hardest position to play well, it's very different from how you play in the "normal" gamemode.

[Fonkay]

Midfield is probably my strongest position. The problem is that I absolutely Suck with a capital S at defense. So if I'm doing midfield and defense dies, I do try and defend, but I usually fail. So if the defense is weak, I tend to try to block and then attack quickly. But if defense is strong, or there are people like Luci, who respond to Teammates--> Def Dead! and step up. I love to be a winger, and just play midfield all day. The trick to blocking for me, is the constant use of glances, and the ability to predict what the players will do. I like being able to watch the zone, and make calls for backup. And I like being able to help out defense, 'cause it makes me feel less useless, since I can't defend at all.

I'm not sure who invented midfiled def. But I like to tell myself that I did. At least in the way that I do it. Although I'm sure someone did, I'd never seen anyone else go back and forth the way it's done now. I started doing it as a way to be a second defender, but I realized that I wasn't terrilby good at that, so I started blocking the entire arena. But, yea... I'm sure other people had done it before me, but I like to pretend they didn't.