The Fortress

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

With all this offensive talk lately, it seems like people are underrating defense again. :(

I was just playing, and the team we were playing against had a really strong offense, they were taking out nemo 2 out of 3 times! That's a freaking strong offense.

Sadly, they didn't leave a goalie, they all rushed the zone. So we were able to win every round.

I would prefer to err on the side of too much defense, to tell you the truth. I'm not talking about 2 or 3 guys crowding into the zone, either, I'm talking about 1 person taking goalie and 2 or 3 guys staying back as wide defenders, with one of them possibly as an outer defender. If you err on the side of too much defense, you can attack late in the round.

The only thing having an offensive team gives you is an early attack! Granted, this is a big deal on large teams, the person who arrives firstest with the mostest is likely to win. But even you arrive secondest, if you've wiped out their whole offensive team, you still have the mostest!

So when someone says "Defend!", "Fall back.", or something like that, take it seroiusly! The only time you don't listen to it is when you are taking the other team's zone. I'm not talking about circling it, hoping to get in soon. I mean you've killed the goalie, or you've chased him out, and their zone is now spinning fast around your cycle. In that case, obviously the best thing you can do is finish the job and win the round! If you're not there, and someone calls for defense, drop back and start killing. You know you can't get all the way back to your zone and help, but you can at least drop back and try to divert pressure off the zone. If all you do is get one guy to come after you, or close up their rear (and limit their maneuvering space), then you've done a great service to your defense, so do it!

Also, watch your goalie. Just plain and simple, watch him. He may make a stupid mistake, or he may be a normally very strong goalie who's having an off night. Just because someone like nemo shows up to be your goalie doesn't mean your zone has become unconquerable. It's a team effort, and even poor nemo can have a bad night. No recriminations are helpful, only team effort is helpful.
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Post by dlh »

I've had this happen to me a few times, and what better way to explain it than with some ASCII drawings?

Code: Select all

(1) The beginning of a round
    * Right side only
 
             ^           -- Center attacker
             |  ^        -- Defender
                |  ^     -- Attacker
                   |  ^  -- Wing-man, should cut off early and help defend (but still should grind middle)
                      |

(2) Go!
    * Defender loops back

            ^
            | +-+  ^
            | | |  |  ^
              | |  |  |
              V       |
            
(3) The beginnings of a team-kill
    * Attacker moves to center. It is now going slower than the other attackers.
    * This is because:
        * Turning slows you down.
        * It is moving in a direction adjacent to the other attackers.
        * It must travel a larger distance to get to the center than the other attackers.
        * Hitting a wall slows you down.
        
            ^
            |   <--+  ^
            | +-+  |  |
            | | |  |  |
              | |  |  |
              |       |
              V
            
(4) Negligence
    * Wing-man moves to center, but gets there before the attacker.
    * If the wing-man makes a close grind he will kill the attacker.
    * He should *wait* until the attacker is in front of him!
 
            ^ 
            |  <------+
            | ^       |
            | |       |
            | +----+  |
            | +-+  |  |
            | | |  |  |
              | |  |  |
              |       |
              |
              |
              +---->

(5) Team-kill
    * Wing-man kills team-mate

            ^
            | ^
            | |          -- Wing-man
            | +-------+
             \ /      |
            |/ \      |
            | +----+  |
            | +-+  |  |
            | | |  |  |
              | |  |  |
              |       |  ^
              |          |
              |          |
              +----------+


*  Drawings as accurate as I could get them.
** Tron physics differ from the real world.
Last edited by dlh on Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:08 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Phytotron »

Ayep, I recognize exactly what you're illustrating. :|
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Post by Lucifer »

I think it's generally better in that situation if the wingman just goes straight out the zone, then darts right, turns around, and *then* grinds the middle, turning back out again. If he does that, then the other guys have all done their break by the time he looks at it, and he'll be able to pick anywhere to pull off. His wall is out of the goalie's way, and any offender who gets through will have to go around it anyway.

Your mileage will vary, of course. A little brake in the beginning lets the attacker get set and the wingman can come in without team killing.

Also, what nemo's drawn isn't bad just because of the team kill. Accidental teamkills are very easy to forgive! But it's also bad because it leaves a hole that's easy to get into, and the whole point of closing to center is to close those holes! At least the dead teammember's wall will drop before the goalie comes back around, unlike most of the other walls there. :(
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Phytotron
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Post by Phytotron »

I agree with the first part, Lucifer, just so long as the wingman doesn't do one of my "what not to do's" and "dart right" too early, thus impeding the inner defender. Otherwise, yah.

I slightly disagree with the second part about the hole. But it's predicated upon an initial move by the defender. As I've typed, the way I do it as an inner defender/goalie, and as I've noticed many others do as well, the very first thing I do after 180ing out to the backside of the formation is to close off the open back-end of the formation. Anyone from the opposing team who manages to squeeze between my team's grind and come down the middle will reach a dead-end with no room and will crash. This is a good thing. As I've also typed, I think it might not be a bad idea sometimes to leave a little gap in the grind to hoodwink an opponent into rushing into.

And then by the time the teammates' tails receded from the initial grind, either the inner or outer defender should have come around and closed off the front again.
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Post by gnorty »

I agree that leaving a small gap is not the end of the world as long as a sufficiently impossible mess of walls lies beyond ;)

One problem is that the trails from these dead attackers can sometimes last a good while longer than the trails of teammates and delay the final close off. In some cases, this delay is long enough that the interior walls of your makeshift starting defense start to recede, and the "hole" in the middle becomes large enough for a second attacker to manouvre inside, and I invariable crumble into a mess of fingers and expletives in these situations!
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Post by Phytotron »

Hmm, this is true. I forgot about that part. That's where a backup/outer defender is very helpful, though.
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Post by Lucifer »

Well, it looks like people have for the most part sorted out offense and defense on the grid, which is good. Here's my newest pet peeve. :)

The left side (or right) consistently crumbles and lets in 3-4 attackers. The right side doesn't notice and goes ahead and attacks, leaving the goalie to deal with them. Even your wide defender on the right isn't enough. So what's the pet peeve?

When someone says "I'll take defense" because they think the goalie isn't doing his part. In fact, when I see this, the goalie is normally doing a fine job, he's just being overwhelmed every round.

If you're on a side that keeps dying early, you need to know that that is the reason your fortress is falling. It's not that your defense sucks, it's that your offense sucks. And you need to break earlier. It's more important for you to block that side than it is to make a quick rush to the other team's fortress. Far more important, in fact.
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Post by gnorty »

Very similar to my pet peeve (mentioned above I think)

"I'll take defence"

soon followed by "I defend, everyone else attack"

soon followed by "Defence is down, HELP"

erm....


I hate defending the zone directly, although I am happy enough to bail out the goalie if he crashes, but this does require some degree of proximity to the zone!
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Post by Lucifer »

There is something to think about, though. While the specific instance irritated me, after I left the game and went to do something else, it occurred to me that we should've done that. Here's why:

Code: Select all

                     |
                 |      | Lucifer
             |              | SASSER
     Windgod
Windgod was the goalie, sasser was the guy invoking this particular pet peeve. The whole left side kept collapsing, literally when they reached the center and didn't break well. Sasser's an excellent goalie, and I think he thought (although I didn't ask) that Windgod was just sucking, but Windgod was doing an excellent job. Look at that lineup, you can see that the other team was getting 3 guys down our left side when our left side crumbled. Sasser and I had a strong right side going where instead of touching the wall, I'd go almost to the wall, and the blue guy would turn back to make an attack. So I'd turn back early, kill the blue guy in the center, and sasser went around me to storm the zone. It was working out ok, got sasser to the zone unopposed (until the goalie) and I could go assist, except windgod kept getting killed when he was overwhelmed with three attackers. So I started staying in our backfield to help windgod, but they were still getting to him before I could get there to help.

On the other hand, if sasser dropped back to take defense, Windgod could break early and cover the left, I'm breaking early to cover the right, and those guys that are collapsing can keep collapsing, the three of us could cover defense, kill the other team's offense, and then move in to make our own attack.

So in hindsight, we should've done it, even though I suspect sasser's motives as being impure.
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Post by Phytotron »

You know, something I really noticed earlier tonight—and I've noticed it before but for some reason it was more pronounced tonight—is that the zone can really obstruct the view. I'll be aiming for a hole and one of the zone's little squares will cover it up, and I either have to abandon that route or take my chances and possibly miss and crash.

Soooo, I wonder if anyone else faces that, and if so, I guess it's worthy of being pointed out as something to look out for (like that wall!).

Um, I really have nothing more to say about that, except "blarg."
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Post by Lucifer »

Couple of tips. :)

When it's 2 on 2, or 3 on 2, or whatever, and the other team has stupidly sent all remaining players to lay seige to your fortress, go ahead and send your co-defender to take the other zone. Seems like a no-brainer when you think about it. If that leaves your zone with two attackers and one goalie, it's probably ok. The goalie then needs to open up his zone and kill one attacker. The open space in the zone is too tempting for the other, he'll try to take it instead of falling back to defend his own. You just need to hold it. But opening the zone and letting him in is crucial for it to work. If he doesn't think he can take it, he'll fall back to protect his own fortress. If they send one or two attackers back anyway, then you've just turned it into 2 1 on 1 fights instead of 1 2 on 2 fight. It's easier to fight the two separate 1 on 1 fights than it is to fight the 2 on 2 fight, it's the zone that tips it in the attackers' favor.

When running a double goalie and you're being attacked in force (say by a factor of at least 2:1), the inner goalie should pull himself in deep in his zone so the outer goalie can chase his own tail, like a regular tail-chasing goalie. Anybody who manages to break through the space between his tail and his cycle will encounter a zone full of walls--they can't take it. Knowing this, the outer goalie should let one person in until he's dead, then let another in, and in the meantime kill whoever he can. By letting one person in, he relieves the pressure on himself, and sends that guy into almost certain death. This also deals with the fact that the other team will have enough torpedos to blast through both walls. So it prevents the torpedo attack that might otherwise work and forces the other team to fight you one at a time, while you can put two together to fight them.

When you're by yourself and you're being attacked by 2 people, open up half your zone. Do it piecemeal, but open it up nonetheless. One of the attackers will fill it, no doubt. Kill the other one first, then deal with the one in your zone. While it seems like a reverse of priorities, it works because the guy in the zone doesn't want to give up the space he's taken for himself, and the guy outside the zone will do whatever he can to get in and turn it over. He's easier to kill, and you can just sumo the guy inside the zone afterwards.

On a large team (6-7 people), you're stuck with a wedge, right? You need to fill in the wedge as soon as possible. If one of your teammates circles you for a little while after the break, he can defend your wedge, which is the weakest part of your defense. You can fill it in then and finish setting up properly.

Also, on a large team, by the time you come around to where your wedge is, one of the other team's attackers could easily have found a way down the middle. So on a large team, you're particularly exposed to center attacks rather than side attacks. So close the center like normal, then turn out, again, like normal. When you are on the part of the circuit that has you facing the wall behind the zone, glance and see how the offense is doing. If a center attack is going to be coming, you should be able to see the signs of it. If you see it, go ahead and cross over and seal again. It screws up your zone a little bit, making it take longer to setup, but it does counter the center attack that's coming, and as long as they don't send some more people down at the same time, you can repair your defense before another attacker arrives.

Again, on a large team, if someone circles you while you're setting up, you can grind their wall for speed. This lets you setup faster, albeit in a more regular shape. You can always put bumps in your walls after you've done your first setup.

So on a large team, you really should have someone circle you while you're setting up. He can cover your weak areas, giving you a chance to get setup that you wouldn't otherwise have, and you can grind his wall for speed to setup faster.

The counter to the torpedo attack is surprisingly simple. Watch for it. At a certain distance from your wall, they are committed and can't pull off without risking killing themselves for nothing. If the torpedo pulls off, the other guy might still hit. If the other guy pulls off, the torpedo might still hit. At that magical moment when they are committed, turn back and box the area they're going to hit. 4 points!

I also found that antagonizing the attackers strengthened my defense. So whenever I laid a trap and they just walked in, I'd talk trash. That made them more anxious to take the zone, and more likely to walk into future traps I might lay for them.

Judicious use of brakes as the goalie can really screw over an attacker. I racked up quite a few points by watching where they expected the gap to appear, and hitting my brake. 2 points!

Use the scoreboard to your advantage. If you have 90 points and there are 7 people on each team, don't even go for the fortress. Move that way, of course, to prevent too many of the other team from being in your backfield together. Otherwise, try to kill them instead. On large teams, you can start worrying about this when you have 76 points. The math works out. :) 7 * 2 = 14. 76+14=90. 10 points for the round gives you 100 points, and you win. Try to maximize your yield from each round by killing a few players. If your entire offensive team dies, but manages to get 4-5 of the other team's players, that's fine. Sure the other team just got 6 points of their own, but you now have a numerical advantage plus a profit on points (compared to what you gave up to get it). So keep an eye on that scoreboard! With large teams, you can win most of the rounds and still lose the game, if you're giving up too many points each round. Keeping that in mind, if the other team gets you in a box or something, try to do whatever you can to turn it into either a suicide or a teamkill. This last part might be considered a dirty tactic.

Ah, one last one. Practice at sumo. :) Definitely. Get over the idea that the zone is yours and yours alone. If you can sumo, and other people on your team can sumo, then they can enter your zone to help you defend. Remember, if 2 attackers enter your zone, they can take it from you. But if another defender enters your zone, you can hold it, and even push the other two out. Yeah, chances are good one of you will be dead, but chances are even better both of the attackers will be dead too. So be ready to defend your zone with one of your teammates inside it to help you. And don't be shy about going in--if you know the goalie can handle it. Settle it later if you have to. If you screw up and the other team wins, well they would've won anyway. But if you do it right, you repel the other team.
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some practical theory from go

Post by 2020 »

i play Go, the japanese game, and i am impressed by how much strategy seems common to this lightcycles game: territory, pressure, implied pressure, and critical timing. i love it, just played twelve hours straight, though being new, my skills aren't up to much. however, for what it's worth:

1
hold the line
although belly1 complained about being in the centre and others grinding him, i think it is a very exciting prospect if all the players try to delay the break for as long as possible. it takes practice. let it be loose to start with, people breaking off early, and then tighten it up as the match progresses as players become confident that the person infront is taking it to the edge. it is imperative that the point-man breaks last, cheek to cheek with the opponents.

2
catapult
can someone verify this: if point breaks as grinds shoulder, and they in turn break as they are shouldered by the outer two, somehow there is an accumulation of acceleration, and, if the timing is right, all cycles end up even just when they encounter the opponents. there is an amazing elastic kind of thing going on here, when it works.

3
left-right balance
because the teams are offset, and because turning slows players down, there is a kind of rotational energy from the outset across the whole grid, the kind of rotation used in martial arts, tai chi and judo and sumo to topple opponents weight. unlike most people's comments about the front three are attackers, which is ok, i get the impression that the right-side, if they hold the line and use the catapult, can overwhelm the opponent's flank and get round to a lightening attack position. this happened a lot with alf(fe) last night. hence the left-side is more defensive since it has to take the main force of the opponent's attack.

4
crenellations
it is remarkable there is a correspondence between castle fortifications (exposed towers, crenallations) and the defencive structures of defence: mazers, as you call them, as opposed as to tail-chasers. crenellation causes more headaches for attackers.


impressed by this thread; especially meriton's defence pictures, because i had to face him on the grid (':o'), oscilloscopes words on communication (':D'), lucifer's far too detailed game reports (sorry, i'm new and the tactics you talk about are too skillfull for me just yet (':?')), and nemostultae's asci coded question (':idea:').
i certainly enjoy playing on some teams and it is nothing to do with skill, but how people are supporting one another; there isn't anything worse than a badmouthing team-mate.

thanks
amazing game, genius design, beautifully rendered, look forward to playing with all of you at one time or another.
hold the line
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Post by KamP »

i would now like to extend my congratulations to myself for having made this thread.
even though i don't play fortress anymore.

On the other hand, damn 2020, you play go?
that game is hard. props to you
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Post by Lucifer »

How to play with a wingman, also, how to be a good wingman. :)

If you find yourself approaching the fortress with a wingman, you need to try to cut deep into the fortress. If you can't, but you know your wingman is a good mazer, blast a hole into the fortress. If you can cut deep, even if you can't get inside, then cut deep, then circle a bit, then go back to your cut. With any luck, your wingman is mazing there already, and the two of you might turn it over. Also, after you've cut deep, you can go around to the other side of the zone and lay on pressure to the goalie. Your wingman will occupy your cut in the meantime.

As a wingman, your job is to assist. If your leader cuts deep, then you cut shallow in the same place and try to maze there. If his cut is deep enough, the two of you can turn the zone over just by occupying his cut. Watch him, though! He may not have time to tell you he's going to blast a hole. Also, he may screw up and leave a hole anyway, so if it appears, take it!

As the two of you approach enemies, the idea is to sandwich the enemy between you. Then you both grind the enemy's wall, blocking him from following. The sad result is that it breaks you up temporarily.

A partnered approach is usually very fast, and you'll want to grind the leader's wall a lot to keep up your speed. He, in turn, will be grinding every available wall to pick up speed for himself. If the two of you are lucky enough to beat someone's initial grind and enter the zone, obviously you have to turn in different directions.

So the other thing the wingman does is defend the leader. So when a defending player shows up to fight, the wingman is the guy who breaks to fight him. The leader doesn't deal with it, he stays focused on getting into the zone. The wingman should try to block the defender that arrives and go back to assist the leader, if he can't block, he has to fight. Usually you'll want to touch the back wall, then turn in towards the leader and trace a patch around towards your tail. The leader should keep going in his direction, and the two of you wind up on opposite sides of the zone, ready to pressure the goalie.

When you do manage to cut, try always to cut in a manner that allows your own teammates to join you. Remember always that if it's just you and the goalie, you can't conquer the fortress without killing the goalie or pushing him out. But if you can cut and then let one of your teammates join you, you can turn over the zone without killing the goalie. Killing the goalie for 2 points is preferred if the opportunity presents itself, but usually winning the zone for 10 points is more important. :)

Unrelated: how to seige the zone by going in a circle around it. This is normally very bad, because it blocks teammates from helping. But if you're all alone, or your fighting 2 v 2 with the other enemy attacking your zone, you can do it. You have to go in a direction opposite the goalie's rotation. So if he's going clockwise, you go counterclockwise. Never grind the goalie's wall! Also, never grind your own wall! Trace a spiral. You'll be going very fast, but with each rotation of the goalie's, he's losing space. The math is in your favor, the goalie will run out of room before you do. You should also leave a spot somewhere where you can turn around and get back out. When you've got a couple of good turns around the zone, get back out. You've squeezed him in tight enough that you can now carve out a section of the zone for yourself. The goalie will have to reconfigure his wall to deal with your change in tactics, and by doing so, you'll be able to claim even more of his zone for yourself. Also, in a 2 v 2 situation, when your goalie has won his battle and come to help, you'll find there's enough room for both of you to turn over the zone after you've compressed the goalie with your spiral.
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