what about "no walls"?

paniq303 · Post by **paniq303** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:09 pm

i guess that with a few %'s in the code this is actually doable.

i am a bit tired about these wallfights, especially on servers with high rubber.

when the center has been filled up, the wall is an advantage, as it allows narrowing the grind to a limit that requires any other player who wants to get in to narrow down as well in a shorter time frame, which is hardly to accomplish most of the time.

furthermore, it is possible to camp around in one of these walls, making oneself almost unbeatable, given that no lagpushing takes place. it also helps avoiding direct confrontations.

what i would like would be a game map where top is connected to bottom and left is connected to right. as a player, i would travel to the left side and come back to the game at the right side. this would also make very small maps much more interesting. it can be compared to the projection of a spherical space (where above property is also true) to a planar surface.

the result is that there is no absolute "center" of the map, that can be filled. any wallfights that take place now have to be done at the risk of being attacked from any side.

paniq303 · Post by **paniq303** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:12 pm

also think of a fortress variation where both teams have the same distance in both directions, forwards and backwards. there would now be two directions to attack from - very interesting to see how these are being handled.

Website · Post by **Z-Man** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:18 pm

http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?t=2669
Unfortunately, it's going to take more than some %. We don't use a huge twodimensional array as the grid data structure, that would not give enough resolution.

paniq303 · Post by **paniq303** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:20 pm

you can apply mods also to vector math, you know?

Website · Post by **Z-Man** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:29 pm

True, but that won't get you very far if the data structures and the renderer are not prepared for it. And they aren't. Plus, modding the coordinates only gives you a cylinder or torus surface. The connectors will allow arbitrary topologies, you'll get spheres, pretzels and whatever you can imagine. Possibly even Moebius Strips and Klein Bottles. Topologically, that is. Surfaces with inner curvature won't be possible.

Your_mom · Post by **Your_mom** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:47 pm

just make a circular map with a wall height of 0 or mabey 0.0000001 if zero isnt supported, and spawn points near/in the center would at least create an illusion of no walls and mabey increase the areana size factor that would also help create an illusion of no walls

philippeqc · Post by **philippeqc** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:11 am

paniq303:

Code: Select all

...
<Wall>
<Point x="-1E10" y="-1E10"/>
<Point x="-1E10" y="1 - 1E10"/>
</Wall>
<Wall>
<Point x="1E10" y="1E10"/>
<Point x="1E10" y="1 + 1E10"/>
</Wall>
...

should give you a big enough place to play "without walls". We decided to hold the "absolutly no walls" till Bacchus.

BIG NOTA: I'm clueless as if the map format support this number notation "-1E10", so I'll ask that you try a few ways of representing that value.

-ph

paniq303 · Post by **paniq303** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:54 pm

hmmm damn good idea actually. although i can imagine people running away infinitely

is there a possibility to kill people who touch the walls?

philippeqc · Post by **philippeqc** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:20 am

My funny bone was itching this morning. Hope yours is too!

paniq303 wrote:hmmm damn good idea actually. although i can imagine people running away infinitely ;)

People who run away toward the far far away have a tendency of leaving a trace behind them. I'll let it to you to discover how to use the trace to catch up to them. ;)

is there a possibility to kill people who touch the walls?

Hack your server so that the logical box encircling all rim walls behaves differently. Normally there is a soft boundary at 10 game unit (gu) after the farthest (possibly not english) wall preventing the player to move. There is a second logical box located at 20 game unit. This one is an instant kill. (Should you ever pass through the "no movement allowed" zone ;) )

So fire up your favorite text editor and hack your server to have the kill logical box "inside" of the no movement logical box and tadam! now the players who drive toward the 1E10 border will meet their doom in *7.93 years, assuming no power interuption, Internet hickup or other such problems.

I see why you would like to kill the players who push the game past the 5 years line. I mean come on, think of the players that died in the first few months and are stuck watching you! Go for the kill.

-ph

*(average speed of 40 gu/sec for 2 players doing a mutual grind, time to travel 1E10 gu = 1E10 gu/ 40 gu / sec = 2.5E8 sec => number of years for 2.5E8 sec * (1 min/60sec) * (1 hour/60 min) * (1 day/24hour) * (1year/~365day) = 7.93 years)

Edit: Forgot to mention, the previous is all possible with the current version (Arthemis). Connectors are planned for Bacchus, so are eBorder, real limits of the grid that are independant of walls.[/b]

paniq303 · Post by **paniq303** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:51 am

a.) i'll let it to you to discover how to use the trace to get rid of someone following you.

b.) i've been thinking about regular arena sizes + walls that kill. not infinite ones.

iF · Post by iF » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:17 am

Hm i have another idea to fix this Boundarywars. The Boundarywars are only possible because the Rubber works on the Wallz.

Simply paint a rectangle on floor. If somebody goes outer this rectangle - he's simply dying.

It must not be a filled rectangle - 4 simple lines makes sense.

philippeqc · Post by **philippeqc** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:50 pm

A solution to rim wall fighting is to slightly tilt the arena wall.

If you do a good grind and move toward the direction where the wall opens up, then nobody can follow you. If you do the same and turn in the other direction, death awaits you.

Even if you do the first scenario, someone coming from the part that opens up will be able to "steal" your grind, having more place and being able to do onto you the same trick.

This should be balanced on a square that is slightly rotated, as everypoint where a good grind is done should perfectly close behind a player, but at the same time, it is always possible to attack the player from the other side, and this is valid for every single points on the rim.

Now if you decide to generate the tilting of the wall by using another figure, a parallelogram or a trapeze for example, you will favor some direction. While the previous analysis should be somewhat true, more study might be required.

paniq303:
b) The server hack suggested IS still valid. Moving the kill logical box just a bit inside the rim will quickly teach respect of the rim for your players.

A bit simpler is to give the Rim Wall an incredible acceleration. Any player grinding them will shoot off like a bunny sitting on a rocket on steroids. Check your configuration file for that. I forget the actual name of the setting and I'm not at home.

Personnally, I'm much more partisan of the tilting solution as it opens to new strategies and game play. The other ones just add inconsistence in the gameplay, making grindign the Rim something that expose you to some silly consequences. But that is just my opinion. I'm curious how you will fix this problem on your server. By the way, i dont know which one is yours or if you have one! Either way, please post your map/setting for this. It will be interesting.

iF: Check the possibility of hacking the server to move the logical box taht kills. Make a floor tile with the rectangle/line drawn on it, and you have it. Its a bit dirty, but that is the best way to test if it behaves like you want it. As for paniq303, I'd be quite interested if you could post your resulting file and which server implements it.

Thanks

-ph

paniq303 · Post by **paniq303** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:08 pm

never did a map before, can you link me to a tutorial or something similar?

i have a server, it's not running right now. will notify you when i'm running it.

Post by **dlh** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:14 pm

paniq303 wrote:never did a map before, can you link me to a tutorial or something similar?

i have a server, it's not running right now. will notify you when i'm running it.

http://wiki.armagetronad.net/index.php/Map_Making

paniq303 · Post by **paniq303** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:16 am

hmm i see map making wont work with 2.7.1... and i was told that the current beta gives a buggy server