The Fortress

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Well, it's z-man's test server, so it's technically his problem. ;) Other than that, as a test server, an argument could be made not to ban people who misuse it because that makes it possible (since the server records) to see what they're doing and to come up with solutions. Of course, I don't know if z-man's doing anything like that, we're in a bit of a quandary about adding new security features to the code, especially this close to release.

On teammate placement, here's what I know and what I think I know (but may not actually know):

When a new player joins, an object in memory is allocated for him. The team sorting algorithm is recursive, so it will tend to move people down the positions like closing a zipper. So new players will always be placed in certain positions according to when their data was created in memory, and old players will be pushed farther out. The oldest player on the team will wind up in the center position. So first you start as offense, then you get pushed to defense, you wind up in a position where you should really play goalie. Then wham, you're hardcore offense until you quit.

Joda's team code is supposed to include a new way of placing team members, and I don't have any idea exactly what he's got planned. Check the wiki for that. All's I know is that the intent is to merge it into cvs as soon as he's done with it, if it hasn't alredy been done, and that it's late enough that it's not likely to be put in 0.2.8, although I think I'd tend to want to include it if the changes aren't that extensive (i.e. we can debug them in a single beta).
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Post by Z-Man »

Hmm, I watched Fidel some time, he did not seem to be worth a kick to me. But that's why the vote kick is active, so you can decide that. There should also be autobanning in effect: after you vote-kick someone two or three times, he should not be allowed to come back for half an hour or so, if you kick him again after that, for even longer.
The technical problem here is that, while usually those bans are permanently stored so people who get kicked every time are banned for a long time, on a recording server they aren't.
But still: if someone is kicked repeatedly and can come back, then it is a flaw in the default settings that should be addressed.

I can't babysit the server all of the time and I can't assign ingame admins as the server has the right to delete all of my work for University and I don't want to take that risk. I can ban individual players by placing kick commands in everytime.cfg, but I also see the server as a test bed for how well vote kicks and autobanning let a server manage itself, so that is only a last resort. I'm not going to use it against people who only go bad occasionally.
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Post by Fonkay »

Hmmmm... maybe he knows who you are, and doesn't act that way around you. But everytime I've played with him he's been that way.
But I understand what you mean.
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Post by belly1 »

Lucifer wrote: In fact, belly is most likely specificlly addressing a situation where he came in after me (to a winning team) and started cutting me and the guy next to me off, making our team a losing team. When I bitched, he attacked me. And now he's basically saying "tough shit, this is how I'm going to be, and if you don't like it, go play somewhere else." Au contraire, you're the newcomer, you go somewhere else. You wanna be inconsiderate of your teammates? Don't play on a team. Since Fortress is a team server, don't play there. Simple as that.

giggle....... im sorry?...... u mean all your stuff after my first reply was cus u was upset cus i mighta cut u off in a game?

wow,

fair enough... i'll indicate next time if u want.

belly
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Post by Lucifer »

No, I'm not upset with you specifically, I'm irritated in general with people who do exactly what you've done. They come into the grid, play by themselves, kill their teammates, then complain that the team is losing, the team sucks, and it's all the team's fault--never their own. I see this the most when the team was winning, then the new guy comes in and the team starts losing. One person really can make that much of a difference.

Belittle me if you want, makes no difference to me. I'm not trying to get you to be a better teammate, you're already too small-minded to be saved. This is for everyone else.
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Post by belly1 »

no no no, i do resent the small minded comment.

the simple reason for me killing my team mates when i played that game was because after the 3rd game i think it was...... i got sick and tired of one person on either side grinding my wall until i had no where else to go apart from into the wall in front of me!

like i said at the start. it may be a team game but each indivdual on that team dosent expect to be a sacrifice. well at least i dont.

u say its ppl like me who turn out of the way to avoid gettin trapped in...... (yes it happens, the ppl on the left and right turn away at the last possible second leaving u with nowhere left to turn)

from where im sitting......... ppl on your own team riding your wall till they reach the opposition and then turn leaving u no where to go.... well its team mates like that i could do without.

seems from where your sitting that i would be in the wrong for cuting u off. to me, u would be in the wrong for leaving me nowhere to in the previous rounds therefore getting cut of.

picture the scene if u will..........

little belly in his little gold bike is rolling away from the start...... to the left and right are more little gold bikes............. round one starts...... the bike on each side of u turns into your wall, grinds the length of that.... picking up speed and then at the last possible moment turn off bellys wall and grind along an enemys wall leaving belly a tiny straight line to play with and a wall in front. belly dies by running into said wall because his team mates have left him no room to escape.

round 2, same thing happens. belly starts gettin a little pissed off. starts wondering why hes the one getting sacrificed.

round 3 starts, belly has decided he isnt gonna be a sacrifice. no one told him he was going to be. he says nothing. knows when the left bike or right bike has to turn...... so turns before them......... they crash and get pissy about it. but it was alright for them to set belly up for a sacrifice in the previous 2 rounds.


leaves me to ask a question.... what is more sporting? getting used as a sacrifice because your team mates want the glory......... or actually tryin to make a difference yourself?

like u said... its a team game........ but seems its alright for your team mates to sacrifice you. but not for u to actually avoid the sacrifice.

u also mentioned making a little note about when i turn....... hang on a sec......

belly starts to chat........ hey folks im turning righ.... oh bugger! too late!

i personally dont think we will agree on this one....... u seem to imply its wrong to kill off your team mates..... but as the game goes...... it seems its ok to sacrifice them.

i didnt turn left to cut him off and kill him then........ i done it to sacrifice them for the grater good. will that work?

no i didnt think so

belly
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Post by Lucifer »

You're missing the point, which happens to be well detailed on the wiki. Everyone is supposed to turn out and nobody dies, and it's through communication that it will happen.

I have said from the beginning of this discussion (and you will see throughout this thread) that you need to tell people what you're doing. You need to be aware of what they're doing. I've played every position on this server, and I've been in the position where my teammates grind me to death. And I've dealt with it without killing them (for the most part, there are some that refuse). I've talked to them, and I've worked out how it will happen. I have 2 instant chats whose sole purpose is to get people to turn out without killing each other.

It's really not that hard, and in the time it took you to write that post, you probably could have read plenty of other posts on the subject. My complaint with you is that you never tried. You never tried to work something out, you just decided "If you grind my wall, I'll kill you." And that's what you posted about.

ANd here you give a play by play which doesn't include "Belly gets sacrificed and asks him team to break earlier." It also doesn't include "Belly makes an instant chat that he can hit early to tell his team to break". Nor does it include "Belly talks to the team to try to find out why they won't turn off." Nor does it include "Belly is looking to his side to try to turn without killing the other guy".
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Post by Lucifer »

I don't know how helpful this post will be, but I'm not trying to gripe. :) Just that when I was playing tonight there were several situations that amounted to textbook examples of what you shouldn't do.

First two, with me as goalie.

In one round, my team went out and fought, fought well, and all of them were killed. So 5 gold guys came at the zone. What did they do? They took turns! One after another each came in and tried to take the zone from me. They had to take turns, because each attacker surrounded my zone with their own wall. Why shouldn't you do this? Because it forces your teammates to wait until you either decide to pull out a bit, or die before they can join the attack. It's the old military doctrine about how two people can hold off a narrow pass against an army. Since I only had to worry about one at a time, I was able to kill all 5 of them. You might say "nice defense", but the only thing I did was outlive my attackers.

In another round, one of our players doubled back through the zone. Some new players had joined, so I think he just got scared by how many people were in the wingman configuration. Since he disrupted my defense, I chased him. I wasn't actually trying to kill him, just push him out. And it worked. I was able to lay a wall in the right place so that I could chase him for about 6 seconds, pushing him to the center of the grid, and then come back and finish setting up. Why did this work? The problem is that if you go ahead and kill the guy who doubled back, then his wall will be left standing, still preventing you from setting up. If I had just stayed at the zone, he would have come back (in fact, he did, that's what I did first) and continued disrupting setup. But I defended against him, and he was forced to go out and look for something else to do.

Now on offense:

I was at the zone putting pressure on one side. We had another guy opposite me laying on pressure from that side. We had nemo compressed a ways and we were both entering the zone, given another 10 seconds or so we would have had it. Then along comes the third attacker. He goes left first to see if he can get in that way, disrupting our left-hand attacker (not me, I was on the right), and nemo takes advantge of the opportunity to kill him. Then he goes right to see if he can get in that way, and actually killed me. It was clearly an accident. Nevertheless, two attackers can take the zone, but three can't.

Again, with all of gold's team wiped out but the goalie (who was nemo), I was the second-closest to the zone. As I moved in, the guy who was closest was finishing his first circuit, laying his wall completely around nemo's. So I couldn't attack. The guy was pretty new to the game, he had some good moves, but his inexperience was clear. Nemo ate him, as you'd expect. So now I had to go at nemo by myself, nd I wasn't up to it. I think we could have taken nemo together, however. Turns out that two attackers can take the zone, but one can't. Attackers, don't circle the zone!

Again, same situation with a minor difference. They had two attackers still pressing our zone, and we had two defenders. So it was 3 vs 4, and my team had 4. So our closest attacker (who was coincidentally the same person) lays a wall around nemo, looking for a way in. While he's doing that, gold's offense is trying to get into our zone. So as I'm approaching, waiting to tke the kid's place when he dies, gold's attckers managed to knock out our defense and take the zone. It's important to take the other team's zone as quickly as you can, so don't surround the enemy's zone with your wall, you will only make it stronger.
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Post by belly1 »

Lucifer wrote: I've played every position on this server, and I've been in the position where my teammates grind me to death. And I've dealt with it without killing them (for the most part, there are some that refuse).

more so this bit.........................

And I've dealt with it without killing them (for the most part, there are some that refuse)


i rest my case i think........ yeah its a team game...... and as u said... there are some that refuse...... saddly its them some that refuse that end up turning out leavin me trapped the few times i was in there.........

thats the point i have been tryin to make all along.....

its them same that refuse that whinge when u do turn out "at the last moment" and they dont turn.......... THATS the point i have been tryin to make, seemed u decided to make it personal in some way buddy and get all defensive over it..........

i never meant to get an argument about wrongs and rights here. i was just puttin across the view of what i can assume must be the regular players perspective when hes repeatedly ground into nothing by his team mates leavin no room to manouver.

make sense?

belly
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Post by Lucifer »

Here's what doesn't make sense, and where your point kinda falls flat.

When I was on your left, you were turning as soon as I touched your wall. There were miles between you and the very next player's turn. And you kept doing it, and I kept trying to talk to you about it and you kept blowing me off. You didn't even give me an opportunity to pull off without killing you.

So what's your point, exactly? That if any player dares grind your wall you're going to kill them? Well, too bad. All players kinda have to grind to the center, or else they leave a big gaping hole in the defense that the other team will exploit, and that particular hole is pretty nasty because it can be exploited faster than the goalie can setup. Like it or not, you have to both accept people grinding your wall at the start, and you have to grind the player's wall to your side (in this case, to your right).

If you want the guy to turn off with enough room for you to turn off, then you have to give him that room! You want room from him? Give him some room!

Now why don't you actually read some more of this thread? It looks like you read the first couple of posts and then started in with your own, which is unfortunate because this particular topic is beaten pretty hard throughout this thread.
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Post by Phytotron »

Edit: Pre-warning: Holy crap, this is long! I hate myself.

Yah, the what-not-to-do's. This'll be rambling and stuff, but hopefully something will be had of it.

First, defense.

Lucifer mentioned doubling back. With my defensive style I almost always doubleback at the start and into the zone. I do this in part to close off the rear of everyone's tails so that if some attacker manages to slip through a seam at the start, he'll crash. (Which is why I think, with this defense, it's actually not a bad idea to let one slip through. Don't worry about making a really tight grind on center at the beginning. Go ahead, leave a visible seam and let him straight in, fooling him into thinking you've been sloppy and he's gonna sneak right in and take the zone. He'll hit a dead end. Boom. One less opponent to worry about.)

Anyway, because I do this, I always say to my teammates, "no one double back except me!" Our mom even has a teamchat with a similar message. Someone new to the team might mess up their first round, but they get it thereafter.

Secondly, if you have a defender who wants to fill the entirety of the zone, and you're near the outside of the formation, don't break off too early. This applies to whether you're going to be an intermediate attacker/defender, or whether you're going to be the outer portion of an inner/outer defense. Wait until you get past the zone a bit. Otherwise you're making it too difficult for your inside defender. You're basically pushing him to one side, or making him take longer to get around to the other. He may also just be taken off guard and smack into your wall.

Thirdly, if you're the outer of an inner/outer defense, don't make some long grind at the beginning thinking you need to get up speed. You don't. Speed for weaks! Truly, speed is not necessary, and in fact can be bad. You making that long grind at the beginning just makes it take longer for you to get back and for the perimiter around the zone. By the time you get halfway to the other side (maybe not even that far), speeding attackers may have already made their way in.

More than likely, a good inner/outer defense will be made up of two players on opposite sides of the formation. The inner guy should double back, swing around the backside of the tails to close them off, then swing back in the other direction to begin covering the side of the zone he was initially on. The outer guy should make a quick grind on center just beyond the zone, then hang one turn to the outer portion, then hang another toward the back wall. Don't 180. Then continue on around the perimiter of the zone. If the timing is right, by the time you get back to the middle, the tails will have receded and you can continue on in the same direction.

Which leads to the Fourthly. If those tails haven't receded, don't turn around. Just stall a few seconds there until they do then carry on. It's best if the outer defender remains on a set course and doesn't diverge from it or take off away from the zone. Don't be led astray by some attacker, either. And again, don't worry about speed. The inner guy should always be paying attention to where you, and possibly your gap, are, so he'll have you covered.

Fifthly, if youre not on defense, and the assigned defender(s) haven't called on you for backup, don't come in and try to be a fookin hero. It's likely that if you haven't been called upon, the defender(s) feel like he/they have it covered, even if it may not look like it to you. He/they may be setting up a trap or something. Whatever the case, you coming in trying to be a hero just disrupts the defense and will cause it to break down. (There's a parallel here on offense, as Lucifer has already touched on.) Stick with your role unless and until you're called upon to change.

Sixthly, if you're a defender, have a couple team instachats to let your mates know what's going on, and use them with appropriate timing. I have four currently. The first is a simple "help!" Yours might want to be a little more specific. But the key thing here is to make sure you don't use it too late. I learned this lesson. Your teammates are likely fairly far away, and will need time to get back to assist you. If you're feeling even a little pressured, hit it. Perhaps, though, you'll quickly find out that you weren't in trouble after all, and you want to let your teammates know they can get back to what they were doing. That's why I have, "Nevermind, I've got it." Heh.

My third and fourth go together as well. One is "I'm dead." Lucifer got mad at me for this being too vague, so I added the other, "Defense needed now!" Look, sometimes the defender(s) crash. It happens, either by accident, myth, or some attacker getting the better of them. So, attackers need to pay attention to team chats for these sorts of messages. Of course, if you're completely on the other side of the arena, you probably won't make it back in time anyway. But certainly anyone in the no man's land should immediately turn back to defend, even if you were in the process of going in to try and take the other zone. Oh, and if you're the defender who crashes, don't waste time typing "omg wtf" or "oops" or any other commentary about the fact that you just crashed and why. Call on second string D first, then gripe.


Um, there may be other things, but now I'll move on to my observations vis a vis offense. There are a few modes of attack that I've witnessed as being largely unsuccessful.

One Lucifer has already touched on a number of times. When you're attacking, don't just circle the zone and its defender. Especially don't circle it in the same direction that the defender is circling. Nothing happens, you're not accomplishing anything whatsoever, and you're actually acting as a sort of second defender for the opposing team. You're also pointlessly prolonging the amount of time that your defender(s) is having to hold off attacks. It's been said once, it'll be said again. This is a team server. Don't think you're alone out there. Others are relying on you.

Another, don't just come diving into my sort of defense thinking you'll get a quick take of my zone. That's what I want you to do. Unless you're one of the very rare breed like our mom or nemo who is really good at navigating a mess—and chances are you're not—you will crash. That's one of my primary objectives. Frankly, I don't care if you get in. I know I'll likely core you (unless I screw up, of course, which I do) and that's just as good, and arguably better, than just staving you off.

Three, the "radiator coil" thing doesn't work. This is where someone gets into the zone and just starts doing a bunch of 180s. You either push yourself in or out of the zone, depending on which direction you're going. If you coil out, you've just reset the zone and have to try again. If you push in, you're trapping yourself for the defender to core. A smiliar thing is true for just trying to zig-zag.

Four, remember that defenders within slow the depletion of the zone. Like I said in my first post here, "omg wtf I was in there forever!" Yes, and so was I. I then pushed you out or cored you. If it's just one-and-one, you'll need to find a way to push the defense out of their zone or kill them, otherwise you're hopeless.

(Attackers who may need to switch to defense, should their defender(s) crash, need to keep this in mind as well. Always keep yourself inside the zone. Even if you're just circling, you don't need to—and shouldn't—circle on the outside. Keep within the perimeter of that circle. Attackers will try to squeeze themselves along the outside portion, but it won't work. A, you're stalling, and 2, they run out of room out there.)

Which leads me to the next bit of offensive suggestion. As far as I can tell, the best thing an attacker can do, if he can, is allocate as much of the opponents' zone unto himself as possible. The point, really, is to make yourself a defender of their zone.

Try to find a way to get in and make yourself some kind of szieable-enough box (not necessarily square; irregular is good), then close yourself inside of it. If you've done it well, the defender has been pushed outside of his zone some. Now, at this point it's just the two of you, and if the defender still has enough room he can stall the depletion. This is where "two can take the zone" comes in. An aware secondary attacker who has been waiting around the perimiter now only needs to get himself within only a small portion of the zone for a few seconds. He doesn't need much. The effect of the two attackers outweighs that of the one defender and the zone depletes.

Or, that secondary guy, by making his move, peels away the defender from remaining within the zone and stalling its depletion. Because the defender knows "crap, if this second guy gets only a couple seconds in, I'm done," he'll oftentimes take off toward the second guy. This is where, as the second attacker, you say, alright. Because now the defender is out of his zone and your first attacker is sufficient enough to cause the depletion.

Good grief, I just typed way too much. So much so that my login actually expired. :roll:
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Post by Fonkay »

Oh Dear! That is long, I may have to clear my afternoon schedule just to read it.
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Post by Phytotron »

I don't know how I did that. :| I'm actually hoping that it's just a consequence of my propensity for longwindedness.
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Post by gnorty »

Some great points from silly, but I have a couple of queries

Thirdly, if you're the outer of an inner/outer defense, don't make some long grind at the beginning thinking you need to get up speed.

If you are too quick on the break, you return to the middle too quickly, before your trail is gone, and certainly before the trail of dead teammates disappears. As my 180 starts with a turn towards my own zone at the end of my outward run, this means my only choicein delaying is to turn back and potentially encroach on the goalkeepers path. Not good! Much better to grind a way, maybe half way to the big crunch and then break. The extra speed means that the time taken to get to the wall is about the same overall, and certainly well before the attackers get there.

Secondly, yourself, alien, Mom, a few others, have that mad wiggly defense style, which is really great to watch, and horrible to attack! Thing is, you cannot occupy the whole zone this way, so are always vulnerable to several attackers occupying small sections of the zone and whittling away the time. How do you cope with this? you concentrate on one of themand the other just gets an easier ride.

I ask because I was defending a couple of days back, I forget who was in goal, but they were pretty good at the erratic style of defending. Thing is, when they had a couple of attackers in the zone, I threw my weight into the fray, to help maintain the balance, deliberately trying to get in the attackers way without interefering with the goalie. When the fight was won, I got back out, but the goalie hit my remaining wall, and got quite emotional. Thing is, if I didnt do it, the fight would have been lost long before. Fair enough, it is the goailies call , and I respected his calls to leave him alone, but it meant I was unable to jump in and take over if/when he wasn't successful.

I have no wish to fight teammates over ownership of the zone, as far as I am concerned, it is the goalies ground, and if he says stay out, then fair enough. But what about the more polite ones who say nothing? Am I wrong to be in there? should I not assume my help is required if they say nothing?
If you coil out, you've just reset the zone and have to try again.


Is that how it works? does the counter reset completely if you step out for a moment? I did some experiments on a server against a bot (bots REALLY suck at fortress!) and it sems that while the counter stops, it doesn't reset. I imagined that if a defender and an attacker were in the zone it would freeze with them both inside, and count up/down when one wandered outside.
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Post by Phytotron »

gnorty wrote:If you are too quick on the break....
Well, notice I also said not to turn out right away, but to wait until you're a bit past the zone. I don't think one should grind as far as the center, though. From my observations, the gain in speed on that grind and the grind back doesn't compensate for the distance traveled, as you suggest. Doesn't even seem to come close.

To the tail recession, it depends on how many there are on the team and if any crash on the initial rush. The more teammates there are, it seems the faster everyone goes and the quicker those tails receded. But if any crash, of course their tail(s) stays up a little longer. But this is why I said the outer guy should just stall until they go away, then cross over. From my exprience it causes a little more havoc if the outer guy circles back round to the center, then 180s and re-circles himself—in part because it throws off the inner guy, and also because the outer guy now finds himself on the outside of his own tail, while ideally he wants to remain to the inside of it.

Also remember that the opposite side (the side the "goalie" would begin on) is the 'weak side'. A) He doesn't go out (at least I don't) and cover that entire side of the zone, and B) on the initial grind, he's one fewer player on that side to break out and hold off attackers out there in no-man's land. So that side is vulnerable to a rusher until the outer defender comes back around, which he needs to do as quickly as possible. Though it may seem counterintuitive, speeding does not equal quickly in this instance.
gnorty wrote:Thing is, you cannot occupy the whole zone this way...how do you cope with this?
Um, I dunno. That's one of its weaknesses, and why 1) it's crucial for the rest of the team to not allow that many attackers through (on which I gave commentary earlier in this thread), and why 2) an outer defender really helps, especially with large teams.

But it's also where improvisation comes in. I try to find ways to stave one off while going after the other, while perhaps also trying to create a trap for the first. I also don't exclusively go erratic. In fact, understand that what I do isn't entirely erratic nor random; unless I'm playing very crappily, I'm always aware of where I am, where attackers may be, and what I'm doing to deal with it. All those seemingly random squiggles have a purpose, even if not always a successful one. Anyway, I don't do that exclusively. I don't just sit in my own little world, squiggling around, oblivious to what's going on around me (usually, heh). Sometimes I have to lay down a longer wall and create a sort of box, then put myself inside it. Other times, if two attackers are on opposite sides, I'll just briefly hit the rear wall, then I can take care of one while the other guy has to circle around to the other side. If all else fails, that's why the "help!" team chat is there.
gnorty wrote:But what about the more polite ones who say nothing? Am I wrong to be in there? should I not assume my help is required if they say nothing?
gnorty wrote:hould ask them (preferably between rounds) whether they want a backup on defense. You should also ask them to have insta-teamchats similar to mine, getting across the message of either "help!" or "I'm fine; don't need assistance." If they just ignore you or are giving the impression that they're trying to be a fookin hero and can do everything themselves, then, welp, sometimes you just gotta teach them. Don't ward off any oppnents from reaching your zone, and let him find himself in 3-4 on 1 siutations and see how well he fares. It's rare that even our mom could handle that, so it's likely that your team will lose a bunch. He'll eventually get the message. If not, he'll leave. So be it.
gnorty wrote:does the counter reset completely if you step out for a moment?
Um, I dunno. The developers will have to answer this one, how the timing and attacker/defender ratios and all that work technically. But as far as I can tell it doesn't just stop. It doesn't seem to be the case that, say the depletion starts at 100%, then an attacker gets in and drops it to 50%. If he leaves then reenters, I don't think he starts at 50% depletion.
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