US Election 2016

[Z-Man]

By now, I listened to the rest of the Weidel/Musk talk; it does get a bit better. There is still a lot to complain about, mind, but I won't; on a positive note, I found it refreshing that Weidel admits she has no clue what to do about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

but later, the local Supreme Court ruled that they were wrong, so they were wrong.

So it still basically a conflict of how the rules were interpreted, I would not argue the court ruled correctly either, I'm guessing they ruled in their way to also block AfD, because potentially both interpretation may have been correct.

The decision of nine judges was quick and unanimous. Your doubts are unfounded. If there was a goal, it was to UNBLOCK Parliament, because the constitution says it should vote for a President (among others), which the AfD was blocking. Yeah, sorry, I had the whole thing a bit wrong in the head, I did not have the full history. Before the session in question, there already was a proposition to change the rules of voting to make them more clear. For the session, there already was a schedule, set by the previous President, basically
1. and 2. Irrelevant formalities
3. Make sure the Parliament is capable of making decisions
4. Vote on the proposition to clarify the voting rules
5. Under the new, clear rules (if accepted), vote for a new President
The AfD would have wanted to skip step 4, the ruling basically was that they can't deny the MPs their right to determine for themselves which rules they want to play by.
The whole thing is here, but 35 Pages in legalese German...
The old version of the Geschäftsordnung is in in here somewhere.

You really need some law reform like we do in the US.

I don't think so. Our judges are typically nonpartisan. Especially Supreme Court Judges, they need to be approved by a 2/3 majority of their parliament (at least at the federal level and in Thuringia, I don't know off the top of my head what the other states are doing), no single party ever gets that majority, so nobody gets to install "their" candidates.

i'm also not sure if you have the same issues as the US where bills to fix things are not clean and have other things in them too.

No, we don't usually have that stuff, at least not on purpose. Sometimes, people try to sneak in little innocent looking changes to laws that nevertheless have big consequences, sometimes, unwanted side effects happen. But the usual proceedings are that one proposition changes one thing. We try to keep our git history clean and readable
And I'm not using that analogy lightly, our law change propositions come as diffs.

Your stance is right, I did not realize it [nuclear power in Germany] was facing closure, but who put it on that trajectory years ago?

Almost everyone. The last decision was shortly after Fukushima happened, in 2011, It was under the second government of Merkel, a CDU/CSU/FDP coalition. Most MPs from CDU, CSU, FDP and the Greens voted for the closure, the only party consistently voting against was the Linke (the party in our Parliaments that is furthest to the Left), and it also had broad popular support.
Previously, there was a bit of back and forth, the first SPD/Greens government decided for a first shutdown in 2000, aiming to have it complete sometime between 2015 and 2020; that was reversed in 2010 under Merkel, or rather, the runtime extended; there still would not have been new plants built.

her issue is that those funds are not just supporting you, but are also supporting refugees.

Refugees and asylum seekers are financed from taxes as long as they have that status. Only when they get accepted or properly immigrate, they get integrated into the social security systems, but then we also expect them to work; we never shut down aid completely, but it's really not much: An adult gets about 500 Euro per month. I think that is paid from the social security bucket.

Yes it is true "All theft is still a crime in California. Misdemeanor is still a crime, you can still go to jail for it." but if the police don't enforce it, which they are not in California, you effectively can steal things and get face no charges.

I find it hard to believe that even that is a large scale problem, but don't bother dragging out evidence, because that's beside the point. Musk was not making a statement about the police was doing, he was making a statement about the legality, which was patently false. And even the 950 Dollar felony limit has been voted away and is no longer in effect, perhaps Musk was too busy to notice.

I get why the BS detectors go off, but when stores literally start locking down all shelves in the stores, It makes me wonder why?

Fearmongering, perhaps? Shelf lock salespeople? Runs on toilet paper during the early Covid months? Anyway, it seems to not actually be worth the loss of sales. Edit: better source.

So back to this point if the data is not being reported because law enforcement is not doing their jobs, then crime looks lower than it actually is.

Sure, underreporting is a thing. Here, we didn't have any changes in law or police activities lately, so you'd expect the rate at which people report theft would be constant; rising crimes would still result in rising report numbers. There would need to be a very specific, odd cancellation of effects going on to match rising crime with stagnating numbers. Weidel is making this up to make previous governments appear worse than they were.

Weidel claims three times that Gender Studies is all they teach in school these days. I checked with Z-Girl, her sum of knowledge in Gender Studies is that there are men and women and (probably because I said it) diverse people and... foxes. I'm glad she is open-minded. So if they are teaching Gender Studies at all, they're doing a terrible job.

My guess is this is probably location specific, at least that's how it is in the US, My state actually has laws against it up until some age/grade.

Doubt it is worse in other places. I have close family in two other states, with kinds and/or being (former) teachers, and they're the kind of person who absolutely would complain about that stuff being taught at their schools. I'll be honest here: Gender Studies (and Critical Race Theory) are such non-topics here that I don't know what they are actually about, apart from what I can guess from their names and which people complain about them. As far as I understand, they are topics taught at the college level, for students in the social sciences. If that is true, they don't belong in schools as entire subjects (maybe a chapter in History or whatsitcalled, Citizenship?), but that is so self-evident that I don't see why one would need a law against it.

[Lucifer]

This one's pretty topical. It's about sources and how people use them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqeFeqInoXc

[Word]

Let's also ignore Musk's mock hitler salute, how Trump doesn't even tolerate a portrait of Mark Milley in the pentagon because he's a petty kindergarten child, and how some female bishop tried to school him what "love thy neighbour" means and he turned the other cheek, by which I mean "attacked her on Truth Social", because that's the Christian thing to do after a sermon, apparently. He also thinks he can just do away with religious asylum, which has been around for at least 2500 years (and is usually suspended during a dictatorship).

[Z-Man]

Yeah, let's ******* ignore that. (Mock? What was mock about that?) It's worse than expected. Three of the things you listed are just surface level. While telling, the real horror is in what they have done already.
Strip Trans rights, check.
Roll back anti discrimination laws, check.
Cut funds on medical research, check. (In case that is not clear: if you cut research funding, researchers are forced to leave research, many forever)
Set violent criminals free, check.
Lowered egg prices, umm... well, the only people who could help with that bird flu thing just got their funding cut, so whoopsie?

And many big corporations are falling in line. Resist.

[kyle]

Yeah, let's ******* ignore that.

Actually that's the part I wanted to ask about, Apparently in Germany he would have been fined or jailed for that? is that true?

Trans rights maybe a little too aggressive, though I don't know the exact details on it, but
Merit first, is the most Anti-discriminatory law I know of, it means those who want to work, who want to push for getting something can, you can be any race as long as you work for something you can achieve it. The key is you must work for it, and build the skills you need.
We only pulled out of WHO, which likely was a very inefficient use of funds

Set violent criminals free, check.

This is one of those dirty ones, I don't believe all of them should have been freed, some yes. But take a look at what Biden did, he pardoned some people without stating the crimes they made, this IMO should be illegal.

He also thinks he can just do away with religious asylum,

Morals over religion, You can't just take lives of people and rape others then hideout in a religious space to prevent prosecution, claiming you did those things because of your religion

[Word]

(Mock? What was mock about that?)

He did it so that some news people reacted by saying "But...but...he innocently put his hand on his heart first!" He did it in the same half-assed way he and modern neo-nazis do everything so they can always say they didn't mean it that way and/or they are being purposefully misunderstood by the powers of evil mainstream media! So that kyle can keep seeing what he wants to see.

Three of the things you listed are just surface level. While telling...

I know, call me naïve, but it seems to me like Christian Republicans would care about these "surface issues" the most. "Behave like an upright Christian"/"Honor the troops"/"fight nazis". Trump blatantly does neither and he's still given a free pass.

Morals over religion

The atheists might disagree but religion is mostly institutionalized morals (in theory).

You can't just take lives of people and rape others then hideout in a religious space to prevent prosecution, claiming you did those things because of your religion

That is not what church asylum is, at least not in our parts of the world at this age: https://kirchenasyl.de/info-fuer-geflue ... ch-asylum/

[sinewav]

I feel lucky that no one I've ever supported, public figure or otherwise, has ever been accused of doing anything associated with Nazis. I also know that anyone I look up to would immediately, sincerely, and humbly clarify any confusion and state with conviction how much they do not align with Nazi ideology whatsoever while diligently correcting any questionable behavior. That seems like the correct thing to do, right? Maybe I'm the weird one for believing this.

[Z-Man]

Yeah, let's ******* ignore that.

Actually that's the part I wanted to ask about, Apparently in Germany he would have been fined or jailed for that? is that true?

That is true. It falls under Paragraph 86, which puts the public use, on German soil, of signifiers of anti-constitutional or terroristic organizations under penalty. What counts as anti-constitutional in this sense is mostly determined by our Supreme Court, the list is short. There are longer lists determined by the ministries and police, and they technically fall under the rule too, but you don't get into trouble for accidentally quoting the motto of Tierfreunde Bimmersbach, "Alles für den Dackel".
First time offenders usually get away with a fine.
The gesture also does not have to match exactly the traditional Nazi greeting; it is enough if it is close enough to be recognizable. Yeah, as Word points out, he did a variation with the hand first flat on the chest, like American Neonazis do, but that probably won't cut it; even if you do it with the left hand, it still counts as Nazi greeting.

Trans rights maybe a little too aggressive, though I don't know the exact details on it

The details are that you now no longer can change the gender in your passport, nonbinaries/intersex no longer exist, trans women are now incarcerated with men.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/01/23/tru ... ity-rights

Merit first, is the most Anti-discriminatory law I know of, it means those who want to work, who want to push for getting something can, you can be any race as long as you work for something you can achieve it. The key is you must work for it, and build the skills you need.

I agree in theory. In practice, however, a strong factor in hiring decisions is the "cultural fit", meaning white dudes like to hire white dudes.

We only pulled out of WHO

That too, but what I was referring to was the cuts made to the NIH.

Set violent criminals free, check.

This is one of those dirty ones, I don't believe all of them should have been freed, some yes. But take a look at what Biden did, he pardoned some people without stating the crimes they made, this IMO should be illegal.

I don't know which of them you think should be freed (I have not looked at the list in too much detail) or which pardons of Biden you are referring to, but we probably agree that the pardon of Hunter was a bad move, or at least badly communicated, as if Biden thought the justice system could not be trusted. Had he just said "Look, it's my son, I know he did wrong, but I love him and want him out of prison" would have been better.

I continue to be baffled by how your mind homes in on murderers and rapists so often.

I feel lucky that no one I've ever supported, public figure or otherwise, has ever been accused of doing anything associated with Nazis. I also know that anyone I look up to would immediately, sincerely, and humbly clarify any confusion and state with conviction how much they do not align with Nazi ideology whatsoever while diligently correcting any questionable behavior. That seems like the correct thing to do, right? Maybe I'm the weird one for believing this.

Quoted for agreement.

[Monkey]

Elon Musk has now tried to intervene in British politics too. It didn't work. He has fallen out with our "Reform Party" leader, Nigel Farage. Farage is pretty far right wing. He was described by Trump as...and I quote..."The king of Europe". Now, Musk was supporting Farage fully, until they disagreed on far-right extremist Tommy Robinson (real name Stephen Christopher Yaxley). Farage basically sees Robinson as too extreme to the right to be in involved in his party. Musk disagrees and has since thrown his toys out of the pram, saying that Farage is now not fit to run the Reform Party. This shows just how much of a far right extremist Musk is.

The atheists might disagree but religion is mostly institutionalized morals (in theory).

Yeah I do disagree. I don't want to get into a religious debate but religion deeply concerns me. Incidentally, did you guys know that Trump has brought out his own version of the bible (well ok someone else brought it out but he has branded it and is endorsing it)? It comes in multiple versions, all of which cost a lot of money, the cheapest version being around $60 and the most expensive one being IIRC $1000. Apparently, Oklahoma state are aiming to buy 55,000 of them, at a total cost of $3,000,000, with the aim of every child, in every classroom, having one.

[Lucifer]

I feel lucky that no one I've ever supported, public figure or otherwise, has ever been accused of doing anything associated with Nazis. I also know that anyone I look up to would immediately, sincerely, and humbly clarify any confusion and state with conviction how much they do not align with Nazi ideology whatsoever while diligently correcting any questionable behavior. That seems like the correct thing to do, right? Maybe I'm the weird one for believing this.

Unfortunately, Anthrax supplied two members for the Pantera reunion, and that's problematic.

[Word]

Yeah I do disagree. I don't want to get into a religious debate but religion deeply concerns me. Incidentally, did you guys know that Trump has brought out his own version of the bible (well ok someone else brought it out but he has branded it and is endorsing it)? It comes in multiple versions, all of which cost a lot of money, the cheapest version being around $60 and the most expensive one being IIRC $1000. Apparently, Oklahoma state are aiming to buy 55,000 of them, at a total cost of $3,000,000, with the aim of every child, in every classroom, having one.

OK, I oversimplified that in the wrong way, but I think most of us* can agree that one can't separate morals from what institutionalized religion tries to teach and what personal belief is in part based on and in turn enforces to some degree, depending on the individual flavour of your religious zeal or what your religious community is - morals. I don't intend to to start a religious debate either, that's just my 2 cents about morals and religion not being polar opposites for most people**. The Trump bible is a great example for that, because it represents hollowed-out marketing for a politician who probably didn't bother to read a single bible verse ever unless he had to in order to please religious voters. Kyle's "morals over religion" is a snake eating its own tail in a way, hard-right religious people and anti-abortion people still vote for him precisely because they see him as a messiah who will restore faith, put religion into practice and guide the country with old-testament-morals.

I feel like I didn't write this very eloquently and there must be thousands of philosophical/religious texts about this by smarter people, so let me add a disclaimer: This is not to say that to have moral consciousness, one has to believe in a God, but I think to believe in a God and practice a religion/live your life in a way so that you follow its teachings, at least the bits you deem important, even if you're a satanist, you have to have a compatible sense of morality and a set of morals (as far as an adult believer is concerned).

Trump might portray himself as a devout, observing Christian with a capitalist sense of showmanship, but do any of his political actions benefit "the poor", the general category "poor", not just poor white people? Where are the morals and religion here? Selling an overpriced bible is perhaps one of the good things he has done, because maybe someone reads it and treats their neighbours with more love afterwards!

*Yes, the church has done and continues to do a lot of harm to a lot of people.

**too lazy to look for statistics to back this up, it's just common sense. make it "most religious people that didn't leave the church yet" if you want

[sinewav]

Unfortunately, Anthrax supplied two members for the Pantera reunion, and that's problematic.

What's this news? I thought it was just Charlie on drums and Zakk Wylde on guitar? What's the association with Nazis / White Supremacy? Anthrax is one of my favorite bands but I'll gladly never give them another dime if they are a bunch of shitheads.

[Lucifer]

Unfortunately, Anthrax supplied two members for the Pantera reunion, and that's problematic.

What's this news? I thought it was just Charlie on drums and Zakk Wylde on guitar? What's the association with Nazis / White Supremacy? Anthrax is one of my favorite bands but I'll gladly never give them another dime if they are a bunch of shitheads.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/ ... n-backlash

I think you're right, I had it wrong that Scott Ian was playing, too. It's Zakk Wylde. Probably Scott Ian had joined for an onstage jam at some point.

Anyway, Phil Anselmo gave a Nazi salute at a show celebrating Dimebag Darrell, and yelled "white power", and tried to play it off. Apparently there are a few people in the metal world that confirm that he's racist, but it's a lot of hearsay.

[sinewav]

Phil Anselmo gave a Nazi salute...

Thank god I've never liked Pantera and think they are a bunch of posers. It's a shame some of this stuff happens in Metal, which is historically really inclusive. Same with fringe right-wing punk. Charlie Benante doesn't live too far from me, I should have stopped by his place and asked him to reconsider.

[Z-Man]

Incidentally, did you guys know that Trump has brought out his own version of the bible (well ok someone else brought it out but he has branded it and is endorsing it)?

Was that the one that was printed in China?

Anyway, Phil Anselmo gave a Nazi salute at a show celebrating Dimebag Darrell, and yelled "white power", and tried to play it off.

At first, yeah, later at least he displayed remorse. I'm not invested enough to decide whether I think that was genuine.

Heh, that is of course a constant problem in the Metal scene. Every time I think I might like a new band, I first google whether they may be Nazis. Why must they both be so enamored with Vikings, Runes and Pagan gods?

I do have "Far beyond driven". My personal policy on these matters is that I keep the stuff I bought back when I did not know yet that people were scumbags, and even allow myself to enjoy them, maybe, depending on circumstance, I just don't buy new stuff. We still have a couple of the Harry Potters, bought for Z-Girl. I still like the old Dilbert books. I'm not sure about Neil Gaiman's works, partly because the dust has not yet settled, partly because they have a vibe that makes it really, really hard to push aside they may have been written by a monster.

Meanwhile, Musk spoke via teleconference at an AfD gathering:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/elon ... rcna189316
(I hope they leave the title picture as I saw it, that accidental flag.......)
I have to dissect what he said. I haven't found a full video, so I'm going by the article's quotes.

children should not be guilty of the sins of their parents, let alone their great-grandparents. ... There is too much focus on past guilt, and we need to move beyond that

(Perfectly in line with what the AfD says, of course)
Referring to the Holocaust, obviously. Now, if language is just a means to make statements that can be true or false, which you can then agree or disagree with, it is true. No argument there. Nobody ever said anything to the contrary.
But language is not just that. It expresses what you think, what is important to you, and you intend to create a reaction in the audience. If I tell you "Some of the immigrants are great artists!" is not just true, I want you to think positively about immigration. What Musk is implying there is that he wants to start to forget about the Holocaust, and he wants the audience to start forgetting, too. But this completely misses the point of our culture of remembrance. It's not about guilt or shame. Nobody ever says, "YOU should feel guilty or ashamed for the things your ((grand)grand)parents did". The point is to remember it, and all the little steps that lead up to it, so that we can prevent anything like it from happening again. It's also not just about preventing Genocide, I'm not implying that a certain direction inevitably leads to that. But even a regular oppressive regime is bad enough to want to prevent it.

That statement is also known to be a Holocaust denier's dog whistle.

I hope I beat Lucifer when posting this from the series he is promoting, it's a little different again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFdwfNh5vs

All the little steps. Today is the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. I visited the place about 20 years ago. If I were in any way spiritually inclined, I'd say that I felt how that place is soaked in evil energy... but really, I felt just what I knew.

They used to say "Never again". A common banner text on anti-right protests today is "Never again is now", and that is right.

The probable next German chancellor, as polls stand, proposes to put a stop to all asylum seekers entering our borders, in violation of EU laws, and does not care where he gets the votes of approval from... an open invitation to collaboration with the AfD. One of the little steps how Hitler came to power was that others thought they could cooperate with him, tame him.

In the USA, if you allow me to link to one post from Twitter, which sums it up nicely: https://x.com/WUTangKids/status/1883239366010745284
That is how you go from freedom to oppression, one group at a time, one restriction at a time. If he wants to become America's Hitler, Trump has the power structures in place to make that attempt. I don't think he will try, mind. There is little in it for himself, and man, it sounds like hard work, you know? And if he does, there is good reason to hope he will be stopped. We'll be rid of him at some point. The damage will linger for a bit.