unfortunately named persons and teams

[Lucifer]

If a vote for such a thing ever comes up, I would be voting against forcing them out simply for choosing a name that some people may not like. Names and words only hurt you if you let them, to me these are just names and words. I realize their association, but I don't think that really matters.

Doesn't matter. If Z-man were to host a game with this team, he could be arrested. This sort of symbology is illegal in Germany (and other parts of Europe).

You're obviously an American, and you just don't see it from other people's poing of view.

Typical.

You claim "Freedom", and you'd lock somebody else in jail to claim *your* right to freedom. What abou the persoon you locked up?

[Vogue]

to me these are just names and words. I realize their association, but I don't think that really matters.

It matters in Europe, educate yourself please.




Durf, I expected this from you. So sad.

[F0RC3]

If a vote for such a thing ever comes up, I would be voting against forcing them out simply for choosing a name that some people may not like. Names and words only hurt you if you let them, to me these are just names and words. I realize their association, but I don't think that really matters.

Doesn't matter. If Z-man were to host a game with this team, he could be arrested. This sort of symbology is illegal in Germany (and other parts of Europe).

You're obviously an American, and you just don't see it from other people's poing of view.

Typical.

You claim "Freedom", and you'd lock somebody else in jail to claim *your* right to freedom. What abou the persoon you locked up?

I understand that laws are different in different places. That being said, I still view them as just words and names. Regardless of the views of those countries, I'm telling you what I would vote if we were to have a vote (If there ever was one). These are my views of the situation. Of course if the names of the teams are breaking some sort of law that would put someone in danger for some reason, i wouldn't be adverse to forcing the name change.

I assumed that removing a team would be decided upon by the community if it were for a name if there were no previous precedent, which is why I proposed a vote.

Also Lucifer. You do not know me. Why do you think I would lock somebody else in jail to claim my right to freedom? I don't ever want to put someone in jail. Oh well, assumptions are things people make.

I'm not going to argue with you right now. I just want this topic to progress. I simply suggest that we should vote on it as a community if there is no rule that has been established for such a situation. Voting is something that the ladle community has used various times in the past. Of course, that is if the team isn't removed for other reasons. Though regardless, in case a situation like this happens again I believe we should set precedent now while we are having this discussion if there isn't already anything.

If the mods or admins want to remove the team for whatever reason, I don't care. I simply suggested using voting as method the ladle community has used before.

@Vogue. As I said above, I was saying what I feel of the situation. I don't believe that it matters. Sure it matters to other people/countries, but I believe that it is something that should not matter. My view is that words or names will only hurt if you let them (Or if they are .

[Durf]

@Tank Program:

To argue for freedom of expression using Nazism as an example is so tragically ironic. I can't even...

I wasn't arguing freedom of speech using Nazism as an example...most of that was just clarification for Lucifer (which he still didn't get somehow).
In my first post I say, "If you are about to enforce some kind of "family friendly" rule..." and "If it's not about that, then I'd say let them be called whatever they want.". Really, the whole "Nazi thing" is only associated with my post because of the team name. All I was saying, rather asking for, was a clear idea of what the limitations are regarding team names. I even provided/suggested an example of such a rule (which would, coincidentally, prohibit the use of a Nazi related team name).

It was not in support of any view point in particular. Sorry if I speak in a confusing manner, but a thought process can span many paragraphs whilst encompassing many smaller ones.
The overall point of my post was to establish a better understanding for everyone, what exactly the limitations are for team names.
(I'm assuming this is for ladle - but what if someone wants to host a tournament with vulgarity allowed?)

. . . . .

@Lucifer:

A pointless discussion.

If so why are you propagating it further? So clearly there is some point. And the point you missed is that, you are responsible for all the associations and emotions you experience. You are the one to choose to carry around such prejudice. Dare I ask how you feel about Germans? Y'know not all Germans are Hitler, and not all Germans are Nazis. Overall, you're holding onto the past. Name all the historical stats or numbers you want, but it doesn't have to be about those things to Hitler (the tronner). As I mentioned, it could only be for shock value.

We will not be tolerant of racism.

good. Please don't.

You can't sit there and ask us to be tolerant of you being a white male. You're not someone who demands tolerance.

Oh wait, you just were! Of your own racism no less.
First I'd like to say that you have no indication or evidence of any of the things I claim to be. Second, I have not claimed to be any gender nor have I claimed to be any race other than "Canadian" as that is where I am currently residing. Third, could it perhaps be....my psychological disposition?
Surely, if it is, then you have some understanding of my viewpoint when I made reference to my own assessment of Vogue's "psychological disposition". If it's not that, then I ask you to show me how you came to this conclusion, or at least explain with words that anyone else can understand.
Overall, you're exhibiting blatant sexism on the assumptions you've made about who and what I am.
Whether or not I am "white male" is out of the question, because you are still treating me with prejudice.
I asked you to stop harassing me and you somehow can't. I almost have to assume you're incapable in some way. Like it's innate, and uncontrollable. Please...control yourself; especially before contradicting yourself in the same paragraph made up of 3 sentences.

If you wish us to not consider your Asperger's, then show us another reason you require tolerance. Just like any African, Chinese, or Indian person who would do. Show us another reason to tolerate you other than your skin color.

Now this is about race?! Stop being so discriminating! You shouldn't tolerate me for any reason other than I'm an individual just like you are. Skin color should not be an issue, and neither should sex. Stop making it about those things Lucifer.
Also, I wasn't actually asking for anyone to be tolerant of me...though I suppose I should have asked you by now...anyway, my point was asking for us ALL to OVERALL be more tolerant of each other (in the context of Hitler's team name). <removed extra>

As for your claims of Nazis would have slaughtered me on the spot, how would you know?
Only because I've given an insignificant piece of information ("Asperger's people" as you would call it).

I have answered this.

You, in fact, know nothing about me until you can prove it. (Meaning you can't say for certain that I possess characteristics that would have been selected for segregation or death.)

Asperger's would warrant death in the third reich, yes, absolutely.

You missed the point when you read it line by line (don't get me wrong, that's sometimes good). What I was getting at was that you have no actual proof that I even have Asperger's syndrome. For all you know that's just something I said. Even if I do or don't have Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's itself is a social developmental disorder (not an illness, in fact people with Asperger's can have great mental health, just like anyone else for that matter, assuming they knew how). Point is that 1) there doesn't have to be any physical sign of it's occurrence and 2) it can be "grown out of" (that's a whole discussion in itself). Really all I was showing was the much greater possibility that you have no proof of your claims, which is just further harassment from you. I mean, if you yourself can show that I both have and exhibit symptoms that would be selected for segregation or death, by all means prove it. Show us how you're not just making more and more assumptions.
(F.Y.I - Asperger's wasn't well known back then and many people with it simply went unnoticed - they lived their lives like anyone else; stop associating those who are gifted in some way are those who are lacking in some way)

Claiming I'm not part of a (or THE as you put it) "master race" is prejudice.

No, it's not. It's something you don't understand. You do realize that you don't know everything, right? ANd even if you did, you still don't understand all of it? You know that, right?

Yes, it is prejudice. By it's dictionary definition, as you are operating under preconceived notions of who and what I am. Furthermore, how does the quantity of knowledge I posses relate to anything being discussed? I never claimed to "know everything" and I don't know why you're bringing it up. Stop antagonizing. Stop harassing. More importantly, stop trying to enforce your personal morals on an online community. I'm sure you made enough people know for certain they don't want to be like you (while before you at least had some respect).

It was a goal to achieve, among other things, a race that didn't include people like you.

Apparently continued harassment is allowed on these forums, and in the public no less. You're deliberately taking things out of context, looking for ways to use them as an insult. How can you call yourself a moderator? What moral are you upholding by attacking me? Who are you supporting or protecting by doing these attacks?

I'll show PMs if I have to, if you want to whine about harassment. I speak in public. You harass in PMs. There's a clear difference between us. I operate where people can see me. You hide behind Private Messages.

By all means, show all the PMs you want. If you base all this harassment you're doing against me because of alleged harassment via PMs from me, POST THEM (not that it justifies you continuously harassing me even though I am not - whether or not I did before is out of the question). I don't hide behind anything Lucifer, and I thought you would have learned that by now. Really, I PM mostly because the conversation doesn't (and shouldn't have to) involve other people. As you can see by some of the complaint threads, a lot of it does not have to be in the public for all to see. But if you feel that to be necessary, I don't mind if you post the PMs I've sent you. I prefer you do it than not. Show everyone how I was harassing you. Please.

One difference is that you're a white supremicist woman-hating pig. I don't know why you're like that, you claim to support equality, but you don't act like anyone who does.

Best quote 2015. GJ Lucifer. You managed to beat your old record and contradict yourself with 2 sentences! (I just SMH at this; more blatant harassment for no apparent reason = hate)
Stop the harassment. I not even doing anything but posting in a thread and you find reasons to harass me. Also, why are you calling me white?

This is only logical to a person who's mind is limited to string search and replaces. For the rest of us, this statement is completely ridiculous.

It was to show you the relevance of a sequence of letters, so obviously you got that impression >_>
If the implication that my mind is limited based on the whole "Asperger's" thing, then this is yet another example of harassment based on prejudice and ignorance. Needless to say, what if I was just a program "limited to string search and replaces", that doesn't invalidate the point that the responsibility of any and all emotion felt lies solely with the person perceiving, excluding eternal influences such as torture - though that still shouldn't limit you to choosing to perceiving torture as pleasure. Point is that if a team name, "Nazi", isn't allowed, then why isn't it censored like some other words are? Clearly the sequence of letters has more context than just what your first thoughts about the subject are. People should be able to express their ideals without being condemned for it (more specifically, they shouldn't have to conform to yours...y'know that right?). As for team names, my only real point was that there should be clearly laid out rules...if there are no rules, then THERE ARE NO RULES...meaning "n4zi" would be allowed....I was never at any point condoning or supporting Nazism (this doesn't mean that I don't, it only means that I never actually said anything regarding my personal opinion regarding Nazism)...So what are the rules regarding limitations to team names?

...

Doesn't matter. If Z-man were to host a game with this team, he could be arrested. This sort of symbology is illegal in Germany (and other parts of Europe).

You're obviously an American, and you just don't see it from other people's poing of view.

IF, IF, IF; the problem with that is it would be his choice. Why would he do anything to get himself arrested? It shouldn't be the responsibility of random people online to conform to another country's laws. And the "illegal" content or activities are prosecuted by the laws of the country that hosts such content and/or activities. All in all, if this is this much of a problem for Z-Man, then it makes the point in my first post all the more clear: WHERE'S THE RULES?
Plus, what does his race have anything to do with it? You may or may not have just checked his IP and are just making racial comments. What's so "obvious" about F0RC3's race? How are you coming to all these conclusions? Furthermore, doesn't he have the freedom to choose not to see things from anyone else's piont of view? Or are those people not allowed in your little club either?



. . . . .

@word, you missed the point about the swastika. The point is that the symbol itself doesn't support Nazism.
The "delusions" I'm referring to are the associations that people hold onto. It all the exposure to the negative influences that create meaning for people, when the fact of the matter is it is just a symbol. The point is the war IS long over and people STILL can't just let it go. It's...just...a...symbol.

That being said, teams like to name themselves after predators, top dogs, something dominant and/or threatening (in the spirit of competition).

THAT being said, this could only be an attempt to intimidate the competition for the upcoming ladle. It doesn't have to mean they support the ideals of Nazism, not at all. You obviously reacted and (are scared - spirit of competition, not intended to insult) perhaps that's what they were going for (assuming they would be allowed to play).

But they aren't, the team was renamed apparently (I didn't check <*edit* I checked and it wasn't changed. Is "N4zi">).
Really all I was saying was that all the preconceptions people have are what make up a bias. And that obviously everyone has a negative bias towards Nazism (so far anyway), so what they are expressing in itself didn't have to be in support of what they did (more or less, simply for shock value) and that punishing them for THAT is wrong IMO (punish them for breaking rules, but not for trying to make a statement, there are no rules against that...currently)

@F0RC3: Glad you can see what I mean (we're not necessarily supporting Nazism)
I agree with what you said though.

[Vogue]

As for your claims of Nazis would have slaughtered me on the spot, how would you know?

hahahahahahahaha can you please stop, you have autism and you would've been killed or put in a camp for it

btw there's a rule for that http://wiki.armagetronad.org/index.php/ ... or_players

[dinobro]

mfw Durf comapres "bearphobia" with using nazi names
That's a true "intellectual" Tron deserves.


Anyhow, I think in cases like this we would rather focus on the motive than content. WHY did they choose such name? Was the motive positive? In most cases I don't think so, they take these names to troll and be obnoxious which should be moderated. That's all from me, ciao!

EDIT: One more thing

That being said, Nazism itself is a point of view (out of many) and yes, it specifically focuses on discriminating by race (racism by its definition). However, just because those people have a different outlook than you do, that's no reason for you to condemn them for it

I swear Durf, do you read what you write? Do you think about what are you going to write? Becuase you often sound like a 5 years old that is completely oblivious to everything. Racism is against the law in majority of developed countries around the globe. Just as nazism is banned and you cannot register any political party that resolves around that ideology. Besides, racism is bloody disgusting. So why wouldn't I stigmatize and condemn people for it?
Please, stop sperging in your posts, start thinking so your posts will be at least 2/3 shorter. Doubt it will do much for their quality though.

[Durf]

@Vogue:

For all you know that's just something I said. Even if I do or don't have Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's itself is a social developmental disorder (not an illness, in fact people with Asperger's can have great mental health, just like anyone else for that matter, assuming they knew how). Point is that 1) there doesn't have to be any physical sign of it's occurrence and 2) it can be "grown out of" (that's a whole discussion in itself).

^
1) you have no proof that I actually have it; it is pointless for you to continue any further with this prejudice.
2) Autism and Asperger's weren't so common and it certainly wasn't known - even today it's not easily identifiable. The chances that a person with Asperger's being selected for either death or segregation (the alternative to death, concentration camps) is less than that of any religious or race reasons. Yes it is well known that Nazis would exterminate their mentally ill, but Asperger's is not a mental illness, and people with it certainly don't appear to be any different. Frankly there isn't a person here qualified to explain to any of you what it is like to have such a condition. Stop the prejudice.
3) Stop perpetuating off topic conversations meant specifically to antagonize me. This topic is about the team name and what to do with it.

Also that rule...is it new? (#13) and if so, using he word "discriminative", well first off should be "discriminatory" or "discriminating" and second, it's too vague. Saying "blue team" discriminates it from "gold team". The rule should be specific enough to exclude the bad while allowing the good (or otherwise acceptable). Like Sexism and Racism are specific enough (it might also be smart to including any "offensive prejudice or discrimination" left to the discretion of the participants of the tournament, or other perhaps some other person of authority for ladle)


@dinbro:
You missed the point entirely. The name "Nazi" (or "N4zi") in itself doesn't promote or stand for anything. It's a tron team name for ladle. This has nothing to do with racism or Nazis. This thread is about what is appropriate for a team name. And AGAIN, I state: IF there are no rules, then there are no rules, no limitations to the names people are allowed to use. Since the start of this thread I've made my point in the matter clear. Responding to the off-topic remarks people make has little to do with my own opinions, so stop condemning me for my posts. Remember, the other option was "IF there are rules" (more specifically, I worded it as a "family friendly" rule). If you're going to post about an "intellectual", at least have the attention span to realize what they're talking about. To be clear (for you, and others like you), my opinion is for there to be clearly defined rules. And all I was saying that IF there wasn't any, then any team name is technically allowed (regardless of if you personally get offended by it or not - you could find bears offensive for all we know)

I'm surprised you find it reasonable to post to a thread you didn't even read entirely. I discussed possible reasons why a team might choose the name. And made perfectly clear how "bears" relate to the topic of Nazis (if you read the thread, you'd see that Lucifer was the one to bring up bears - he even related them to Nazis himself....the reasons you hold me responsible for how "intellectual" that is, is a result of your own prejudice and bias with the members of this community)



Like I said to Lucifer and I'll say it to both of you:
"just because those people have a different outlook than you do, that's no reason for you to condemn them for it"
Especially dinobro, how could you possibly interpret this as a form of support for racism?
This is in support of every individual having the freedom to exist as they choose to.
Stop grasping at straws in an attempt to besmirch me.


Seriously, even if I was a white supremacist racist sexist whatever some of you persist on calling me:
I have done no harassing of the sort. I have not tried to convert anyone. And I certainly have not done anything to warrant this behavior from you. Nor would me expressing me ideals warrant a ban; I am entitled to my own beliefs so long as they don't harm anyone. But guess what? Disagreement doesn't count as harm (too bad I know)
That being said, imagine how stupid you look given the other possibility: continuing to harass me when I'm NOT any of those things..


Everyone in here that has strayed off-topic for the purposes of discussing views on Nazism (let alone my view on the matter), anyone harassing me for no apparent reason, anyone continuing off topic subjects...all these people are examples of people who warrant more punishment that the person who named their team "N4zi" as the offense is deliberate and continuous.

Put simply...wtf people? What's wrong with you. Stop it already.

[Word]

That being said, teams like to name themselves after predators, top dogs, something dominant and/or threatening (in the spirit of competition).

A name that says you hate/kill Jews is in the spirit of the competition?

THAT being said, this could only be an attempt to intimidate the competition for the upcoming ladle. It doesn't have to mean they support the ideals of Nazism, not at all.

Yeah, because all other players are stereotypical Jews.

It's a tron team name for ladle. This has nothing to do with racism or Nazis

Well, it's pointless. I don't know how else to tell you. Ladle rules cover the most specific issues related to the tournament. That there's no rule in the wiki concerning hate speech and racism doesn't mean it should be open to self-declared racists. We used to take that for granted. You're like a guy in a burning, crashing airplane who keeps smiling because the monitor in front of you says you're going to reach your destination as planned.

The point is the war IS long over and people STILL can't just let it go. It's...just...a...symbol.

terrible understanding of history and iconography.

[Durf]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are treating them like they are Nazis when it's just a team name...nothing more.
And even saying "treating them like they are Nazis" should tell you just how prejudice you are.

No one that posted here is saying that racism is a good thing.
What you are confusing is a team name for expressing racism.
The team name in itself isn't racist.

You realize that you are doing the very things Nazis did? Discriminating against a person for their beliefs? (again, not that anyone in this thread actually stated their opinion regarding Nazism)
Just because the word "Nazi" is in a thread, doesn't mean you have to get all worked up over it.


Apparently I'll have to repeat myself since no one is capable of reading the entire thread:
This is about whether or not there are clearly defined rules for the limitations of team names.
Those of you getting worked up over Nazism are mislead on what this topic is about.
Stop making this about racism and your own personal morals. All I was ever saying was that if there aren't any rules limiting team names, then teams should be free to name themselves whatever they like. It doesn't have to be about supporting any ideals.
Would you ban a team name like "The Jesus Christs" or "I'm The Pope" or "The Swastikas"? These have just as much reason to be banned since they express personal morals / ideals (except the last one - no reason to ban that, even by your standards). If you're going to be prejudice, at least try not to be a hypocrite.
Like I've said before, the only negative emotions you experience as a result of a team name like "N4zi" are because you carry them around with you. Lighten up will you? It's just a name.


Also I have no clue what you meant by:

Yeah, because all other players are stereotypical Jews.

What do Jews have anything to do with it? I never claimed anyone was Jew? Wtf?


This overbearing oppression over what should be a normal conversation is getting ridiculous.
Perhaps you need to visit the #freehugs thread for some love, because you seem short on it.


THAT being said, you all probably should have looked into the link that Vogue posted regarding rule #13.
Remember what this thread is about >_>

So this thread should be moving on by now...onto discussing if that rule is sufficient to your standards and what to do about any violations of that rule. (smh in disappointment)

*Edit* Oh noes! Durf said something! Get him!

[Amaso.]

So people were willing to unban Vogue just so that another team could play and more competition? This guy isn't ban and comes up with a team but no one likes the name.
GGs

[Amaso.]

As for your claims of Nazis would have slaughtered me on the spot, how would you know?

hahahahahahahaha can you please stop, you have autism and you would've been killed or put in a camp for it

btw there's a rule for that http://wiki.armagetronad.org/index.php/ ... or_players

Did she get a ban? Or a warning atleast?

[Amaso.]

If you are about to enforce some kind of "family friendly" rule for the children (~8 years old), then much more discretion and, if needed, censorship would be required.

It's never been about completely enforcing family friendly, but about a somewhat idealized standard of communication where we are all passingly polite.

I've previously warned xX_Hitl3r_Xx about the account name. It's been renamed now (FluffyBunnyRabbits). Future accounts will be deleted on sight.

I don't believe a priest or someone highly religious would find "Lucifer" an appropriate name.

[Vogue]

Lucifer and/or Z-Man, I believe Amaso has a ban on the username without a "." and he's evading it right now. Please ban him again, thanks!

it's just a team name...nothing more.

Yeah.. a team name, with Hitler as the team leader. Totally has nothing to do with actual nazi's, right? But keep posting, I'm glad you're showing more of your true colors. I'd love to see your bff sinewaffle back you up on this one.

[takburger]

In my country, using names representing such groups to label a group existing today is called : Apology of 'insert topic'

Here it would be apology of racism.

It is illegal. And the reasons are clear, by naming yourself that, you pull on your head the reputation and shared vision of the group as a pride.

Which means if you use "Nazi", then the underlying meaning is that you are proud of being a racist and want to have jew killed, alongside with roms, handicapped, black, muslims ...

It is time you understand that every action carries a meaning.

[Oparachukwu]

don't you guys think this is over? "No racist, anti-semitic or other discriminative team and player names allowed." It's rule #13. You guys argue too much. Why can't we be all good drinking buddies?