Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

[D33P]

I think we should include this. Here is a discussion about Vogue on the fast track forums. It's great to invite some more players' thoughts whose voices are unheard because they are "neophytic" to fort.

Since Opara has already pointed you guys to my/other FTer's ideas on this topic, I won't repost the same ideas on here (which I was planning on doing). Instead, I'll address a few things about me that I would have included in my post.

I have never met Vogue before, and thus have never had a positive or negative experience with her. The only things I know about her come from her posts on these forums. As an "outsider", my goal isn't to keep her out of Ladle because I hate her or whatever. I am here to give my opinion on what I think is correct to do in this situation, and what will benefit Armagetron in the long run.

Regarding what Snxp said to me in public sumo today and on these forums, I suggest that you, and anyone that shares this opinion, change it. Yes, I have little Ladle experience, and have not been playing Fort as long as many of you guys on these forums. So how does this invalidate what I said? Logic stands by itself, and is independent of the person saying it. What I say might be factually incorrect due to my lack of extensive knowledge on the history of Ladle and Vogue, but it is not automatically invalid, and should be considered with everyone else's opinions.

Also, is that really the message that you want to be sending to those new to Fort? That we shouldn't have any say in decisions regarding Ladle? If you are so fixed upon increasing the size of Ladle, do you think that new people will want to hear that they don't deserve a voice? I helped to create and currently lead the relatively new Fasttrack Ladle Team (KSI), who are currently signed up for the January Ladle, so I suggest that you listen to my and other FTer's opinions, as we are the only growth Ladle has to speak of atm.

And as I said in my post on the Fasttrack forums, what happens to Ladle/Tron if Vogue is unbanned is completely irrelevant to the judicial process for Vogue's violation of the rules. Even if she would positively contribute to Ladle if she was unbanned now (which is highly debatable and hypothetical at this point), that should have zero influence on the outcome of this appeal, otherwise the integrity of Ladle would further be compromised by ignoring proper judicial procedure.

[Gonzap]

I like these new guys, keep up with the good work, more people like you is what we need instead of this character named Vogue.

[sinewav]

Welcome KSI

[Durf]

I know I said something about not posting anymore, but what can a tronner do? :s

1) Sure it's creative a awesome for a girl to do...anyone have proof that Vogue is a female?
It's not uncommon for males to pose as females online (attention is attention, and pretending you have tits will get an attention hog more of it)

Stop being sexist. Secondly, if you want proof for this extremely irrelevant fact and at the same time have a conversation WITH me about the workings of my mind, rather than about me; get on teamspeak today. If you have the balls, that is.

Lol, I like the challenge, but I wasn't online for the past couple days.
We can discuss the proof if you really want, though teamspeak wouldn't be enough for me. PM me if you want to talk more about that.
As for talking about you and the workings of your mind, I'm always open to talk to people (PM me).
Though I would like to point out, nothing I said was sexist. I did not discriminate you for your (supposed) sex.
Saying that it's 'awesome for a girl to do those things' only says that girls don't often do it and the fact that (supposedly) one did is what is awesome.
(**what a girl thing to do; assume I'm being sexist. LOL jk ;D **)

I don't want to be UNBANNED. I want to be able to appeal my ban! That doesn't mean the result will be anywhere close to a complete removal of the ban.. is that so unreasonable of me?

This is the best thing you've said so far.

You misread what I meant, but I also wasnt very clear.. My point bringing those 2 players to mind was more or less to say.. Those who play competitive ladle/fortress actively.. right now.. really should have the most say in anything that directly affects ladle. ... Both of those people just like to argue and gloat. Those of us defending Liz are not really defending Liz.. we just wanna play Ladle and will do whatever it takes to get even so little as 1 additional Team added to the ladle brackets! If Liz cant build a team of her own.. she will have somewhere to play.. 1 way or another she as well as anyone at all to join the Ladle bracket is 1 more player we need to add to ladle attendance.

Really, If you want your opinion to really be heard.. how about everyone who's posted in this thread play in the next ladle! Build a Team! Join a Team! Who cares, just come play.. thats the whole point!

My contributions to the community has nothing to do with a ban appeal, and neither does vogue's (potential) contributions. Those of you who are defending Vogue are forgetting that an appeal is an appeal. What she will (or might) do has nothing to do with the process and should be ignored.*
Even if it were true that I simply like to argue and gloat, it wouldn't make your argument(s) correct. Frankly, I couldn't care less about gloating since I care about tron as a whole and not some trivial discussion of a difference in opinions.
Furthermore, I am playing in the next ladle (afaik).
Literally every argument you made is flawed in some way. Why exactly do you think her appeal should be approved? (without discussing irrelevant topics, focus on the appeal. no one cares about what she promises, or what you think she will bring. This is an appeal for a ban, nothing more.)

* if you don't ignore Vogue's promises of a new team, then you are discussing the appeal as if she was more valuable than another tronner. Like she is so much better than someone that doesn't play ladle.
That is very elitist of everyone who is supporting Vogue on the basis of what she can offer.
Such discrimination should be abolished.




@takburger, if there was less bigotry and more open minds then people would feel comfortable posting. But what's the point of talking when no one will listen to reason? Your own post is an example of how unwelcoming this community can be at times. Where's the love?
An argument is an expression and discussion of different (sometimes opposing) ideas.
Which doesn't have to be a bad thing, nor does it have to hurt any feelings. A difference in opinion typically happens when someone is mistaken about a fact. A short discussion is all it should take to find that misunderstanding. (note this is different than discussing opinions not based on fact, such as faith/beliefs)

@sinewav, thanks! Hope to pwn you soon ;P (lol)

+1 Word (for realizing what reputation means where others blatantly ignore it)
+1 Venijn (for being able to see where others are blind)
+1 D33P (for wording what people need to hear in a coherent way, couldn't agree more)

lol THEred, indeed, very much lol
lol /dev/null, lonely? ;P Finally someone who can be as big of a prick as you can be, you were meant for each other. (jokes <3) Though you are getting really off topic, not that your thoughts are unfounded, but this thread probably isn't the place for them. I, too, have had issues with the separation of the fort/sumo sub-community.

Some of you seem to remain confused.
Seriously though, focus on why we're here:
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=23852
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=23856

[Soul]

I like these new guys, keep up with the good work, more people like you is what we need instead of this character named Vogue.

+1

[Vogue]

Guys, I don't want to be unbanned. I want to be able to appeal my ban & as far as I know, people are working on a process for that. It's clear that the community is once again divided by players who find it enjoyable to play with me, players who want me to sit out my ban because it's the right thing to do, and other players who just hate me and would vote for a permaban if it were an option. But, I assume I'll be able to appeal my ban properly soon and we'll see what the outcome is. Let it be final.

only says that girls don't often do it and the fact that (supposedly) one did is what is awesome.

Girls don't often do awesome things..? Why haven't sinewav & phytotron, my fellow social justice warriors, come to my aid yet? No but in all seriousness, that comment tree is extremely sexist.

[Word]

Welcome KSI

qft

[Olive]

guise pls. its christmas <3

as someone mentioned before: sending out a vote is probably the most objective and least time-consuming approach. Tronreaucracy prevails.

edit: I found the video utterly hilarious

[compguygene]

Given that the next Ladle is in just barely over 2 weeks, it would be impossible for us to vote in a process for an appeal, vote to accept vogue's appeal (neither of which is assumed will pass), have a public debate, and have a final vote to render a decision before the next Ladle.

[blondie]

…and on page 7, Godwin's law was satisfied

curiously, I wonder if them folks would have endorsed leet-speak. My guess is "nein"

[Oparachukwu]

I agree "Trolls" are needed and will always exist on a game in order for a Yin and Yang balance, that is just the way it will be.

Who is this guy? And he just agreed with me, I like him.

[Lucifer]

This whole conversation is dumb. DUMB I SAY.

Liz has the right to appeal. Period. The problem is there's no process.

BUT SHE HAS A RIGHT TO APPEAL.

It is not possible to create an infallible justice system, that's why the right to appeal is enshrined in every free country (and even in some not-so-free countries).

So, in case it wasn't clear, SHE AND EVERYONE ELSE HAS A RIGHT TO APPEAL THEIR INDIVIDUAL CASES.

As she has said several times, she's not asking to be unbanned. She's asking for an appeal.

As to all of you judging her "snide" comments, she is a person who, I believe, tends to keep her shit together. She trolls a lot, that is true, but so do I. She's made a serious request, and she's hoping to get a serious response, and she's cracking jokes along the way because she likes to crack jokes. It's no different than whenever I get stopped by cops and I crack jokes to them. Hell, sometimes they crack jokes right back at me. The cop that arrested for me when I got the DWI was hilarious, and not just because I was drunk, he really was doing a good job.

So enough with this conversation. I'm locking this thread.

Liz has asked for an appeal and there is work being done to create a process so that she can exercise her right to appeal.

There is no further need for this thread.

As usual, spilling the dumb little arguments from this thread into other threads will also provoke moderation. so DON'T DO IT you nimrods!