Ladle (& Bowl) time / Time zone table

[dlh]

I'm planning a small overhaul to the Ladle pages that will reduce duplication and the required maintenance for the event. For example instead of hardcoding the date you'd use {{Ladle Meta|date}} (other keys: number → 81, ordinal → eighty-first, thread → forums thread URL).

I also made a Time Table template¹. To produce this table you'd use the following wiki-code.

Code: Select all

{{Time Table | Sunday, May 4th, 2014² | timezone=America/New_York
    | 13:45 | label1=Octa Finals
    | 14:30 | label2=Quarter Finals
    | 15:15 | label3=Semi Finals
    | 16:00 | label4=Finals
}}

¹ The BST column is only shown when appropriate.
² On the actual Ladle page {{Ladle Meta|date}} would be used.

I had the Time Table idea a while ago—chrisd suggested a similar idea in the FFA 2 thread. That brought it back to my attention so I implemented it.

It's ready to be used, but on the wiki I need to install one extension and enable another that comes pre-installed. Those changes are temporarily shelved until the wiki transitions to a better set up.

[takburger]

well, to computerize the problem could be a solution, but it is damn complicated knowing that:

• Ladle time change between Summer and Winter so we can have the same time after the summer hour differential
  US and EU summer time happen on a different date

Also, if we just think one second, it can be winter OR summer, if you live on a zone that has "summer" then the exact hour do NOT change:

Winter Ladle CET-------Summer Ladle CET:
7:45pm(CET)---------------7:45pm(CEST)

Winter Ladle EDT-------Summer Ladle EDT:
1:45pm(EDT)--------------1:45pm(EST)

Winter Ladle PDT-------Summer Ladle PDT:
10:45am(PDT)--------------10:45am(PST)


You just all thinking too much and getting lost to the times. IT JUST DO NOT CHANGE AT ALL

look :
http://wiki.armagetronad.org/index.php? ... interTimes
http://wiki.armagetronad.org/index.php? ... ummerTimes

So just think: "oh it is 10:45 in the morning all year long"

instead of being like : "ok so it is winter so it is GMT 17:45 minus 8, wait, is it summer so it is 17:45 wait no 18:45 or was it 16:45 WTF ???"

[sinewav]

Oh right, the same. I just copied the times from the templates. I didn't do a single calculation. So I guess it is a good thing I was lazy because the templates we've used the last 2 years are apparently bogus, haha.

Thanks dlh, I hope we can get that automated time-table one day. I was looking into something like that yesterday, but as soon as I saw the need for a plugin I just gave up.

[theo]

I didn't see anything that would improve the current state.

* Is the current table bad?
I don't think so. Don't fix something that is not broken.

Is the current table broken? If it is, just state what is broken before trying to fix it.


Should we remove GMT?
No.

UTC (wrongly named GMT here) is the reference.

What is someone is not in the listed timezones? Ok so if you live in another zone not listed. Instead of converting from UTC to my timezone (what's it's made for) you have to convert from listed timezone to UTC and the convert back to your timezone? That's insane.

Should we rename the time zones?

Why not. I don't see how it's better than the actual name. But if you want to do it. Just don't rename CST/CEST to Germany.

I'm not sure everybody from Spain to Poland know they use the same time as Germany. But they're supposed to know it's CE(S)T.


Note: I didn't understand dlh's proposal (how does it work? How is it better?). It might be better or answer some of my questions. But I can't tell.

[sinewav]

Apparently, since Ladle follows Summer Time and those changes always happen between Ladles, the time everyone plays will never change. The only place to add clarification is on the Ladle Operations page (no one ever reads), changing GMT to GMT/BST. So this whole thread has been kind of a funny waste, except now we know the summer/winter templates are useless.

There are a few places where individual players might be confused. For example, parts of South America and a small sliver of the US do not follow Daylight Savings Time. Let's leave it up to them to figure out.

Time differences may be a problem for other events that may occur within the two week range (approximately) where countries make their change to Summer Time.

[takburger]

summer/winter templates are useless...There are a few places where individual players might be confused. For example, parts of South America and a small sliver of the US do not follow Daylight Savings Time. Let's leave it up to them to figure out.

Well yes, this is why templates are useful. You have to provide GMT/UTC base to the Ladle time. If you don't you are basically denying other countries to participate.

Also, as you point out, southern hemisphere do not follow Daylight Savings Time. Do you know why ? It is simply because they are in the southern hemisphere and that our Summer is their Winter. So the saving time would occur for them during our winter.

And this is a mess, I would not go and look to every country to make a rule, it is much more simple to just give "One Time to Rule Us All: The Standard Time".

[theo]

now we know the summer/winter templates are useless.

I think the tables are helpfull.

Time differences may be a problem for other events that may occur within the two week range (approximately) where countries make their change to Summer Time.

Actually it's 3 or 4 weeks :

Since 2006, US, Canada switch 2nd Sunday in March & 1st Sunday in November.
Since forever, EU switch last Sunday in Mach & last Sunday in October

they are in the southern hemisphere and that our Summer is their Winter. So the saving time would occur for them during our winter.

Yeah. If they switched too it would be in the other way. So we would have, say, +1h 6 month of the year and then +3 (or -1).

[Monkey]

I'm agreeing with theo and tak on the fact that we need to keep UTC/GMT time on the table or whatever we are going to use because we can't provide a table that covers all countries. UTC/GMT is the reference by which all other time zones are made. It is always best to use UTC/GMT as the base reference.

[voodoo]

May be adding a countdown to ladle start can help whatever the timezone players are in ...

[chrisd]

It seems the people criticizing dlhs effort are really not thinking this through. Please take a moment to consider the fact that DST/summer time does not start at the same date everywhere before you start to criticize. In particular, tak, it is quite impossible for tournaments to always start at the same time for everybody if they are held on dates when one country is already in DST/summer time but the other is not. It is in particular at those times that we need an accurate table.

This actually caused some confusing the last FFA. I, for one, wrote the wrong time in my agenda and only later noticed what the actual starting time was. In its original shape the page actually showed a different UCT/GMT time in the brackets compared to the time table which really does not help.

Of course, another alternative is to just drop the table altogether and only metion UCT/GMT times. In that case the table could at least not confuse people.

[takburger]

This actually caused some confusing the last FFA. I, for one, wrote the wrong time in my agenda and only later noticed what the actual starting time was. In its original shape the page actually showed a different UCT/GMT time in the brackets compared to the time table which really does not help.

It did confuse everyone because it was the only week in the year when there is a difference of summer time between USA and Europe. Ladle is not concerned by this.

I'm not criticizing dlh effort though, I was mainly correcting mistakes done while converting times which kind of turn their argumentation down a little.

But I'm all for a clearer system for everybody.

[kyle]

For the ladle, I really did not think that this idea was that great, When I initially read i thought more places needed to be updated when it got reset, however I missed one key factor the {{Ladle Meta|date}} Which i think will make resetting take just about the same amount of time. Also i really think it is good for the one off competitions, CTWF tourney, sumos and others since they don't always happen to fall at times when the countries have changed their clocks.