Elections 2012 [third-party candidate option added]

[Lucifer]

How about legalizing weed and prostitution while getting rid of the minimum wage.

What exactly will be accomplished by getting rid of the minimum wage? You know, besides creating a serf class in America?

[Ratchet]

First, thanks Phyto for giving me an in-depth explanation


Second

How about legalizing weed and prostitution while getting rid of the minimum wage.

What exactly will be accomplished by getting rid of the minimum wage? You know, besides creating a serf class in America?

If anything, shouldn't people try to raise the minimum wage? I mean, that would give those who are working more money to spend on things they wouldn't normally buy, and would help the economy as a whole.. right? Granted, I know "inflation" exists, but what's the proper balance of distributing money to help consumers and giving too much money to raise prices?

[Word]

I lopped off about a quarter of my fingernail on my left index finger, the thumb-side corner of it

I'm for Obamacare so I don't have to pay your doctor for starting the thread.

Granted, I know "inflation" exists, but what's the proper balance of distributing money to help consumers and giving too much money to raise prices?

In Germany we had that discussion for years. My opinion is that small businesses' employees should get tax money while big business should pay it themselves/pay more taxes for the smaller companies (they often depend on those anyway)*. Minimum wage doesn't work when the taxpayers pay everything, because then companies can do what they want (like, rewarding their chairmen with an absurd bonus even if they failed to do their job while paying nothing to the ordinary workers). On the other hand, nobody wants our bigger corporations to leave the country because of something like that - our economy is capitalist, we have competition. Additionally, a good minimum wage is said to be a strong incentive for academics or specialists to work here. I don't think it's that easy though, because our high taxes, the gas and supermarket prices diminish that; our industry isn't what it used to be.

*big business = they can afford it/small business = they can't

[-*inS*-]

How about legalizing weed and prostitution while getting rid of the minimum wage.

What exactly will be accomplished by getting rid of the minimum wage? You know, besides creating a serf class in America?

If anything, shouldn't people try to raise the minimum wage? I mean, that would give those who are working more money to spend on things they wouldn't normally buy, and would help the economy as a whole.. right? Granted, I know "inflation" exists, but what's the proper balance of distributing money to help consumers and giving too much money to raise prices?

No.

Minimum wage is actually a really bad deal for all parties involved (except one [not whom you may think heheh]). So let's outline what minimum wage actually is. It's literally a wage that no employer can undercut. Why is this bad you may ask, well it goes against the free market where people should be paid exactly "what they are worth". This might seem like a great deal for people who do make minimum wage, however there is one caveat - less people making minimum wage get hired as some are an economically horrible deal. This increases unemployment as well as hurting the small businesses moreso than the larger ones.

Summary: The same amount of money goes into fewer hands. It hurts people who could otherwise get a job and companies.

Now what party is known for aggressively trying to raise the minimum wage? The democrats. Who is the major backer of the democratic party? You guessed it, unions. It's in unions' best interests to raise minimum wage. However none of them make minimum wage themselves. Their primary goal is to make employing minimum wage (and thus lower skill) workers more undesirable which is advantageous for Unionized labor as it cripples their competition. It's merely a selfish ploy.

(For the record I disagree with a good amount of conservative politics as well, this isn't meant to be an attack on democrats, just minimum wage as a whole).

Increasing minimum wage sounds great when you view only the individuals making it, but all money comes from somewhere. The economic implications on businesses would be huge. Say if you raised the minimum wage to $15, maybe around 50% of companies that rely on that type of labor would go under (in would also kill nearly all small businesses). In addition to that, you would have an even bigger group of people who can't get jobs because it is unprofitable to hire them. This would then shrink the amount of consumers further hurting the companies who did survive. Eventually society would collapse (having that many unemployed would be unsustainable).

Now I didn't say I was against welfare in general. There are much more effective methods at preventing the development of a "serf" class rather than minimum wage.

Note all 3 of my original suggestions were somewhat controversial economic decisions.

[wap]

My English probably isn't good enough to join this discussion, but I'll try.

Insa, saying minimum wage is a bad thing for almost everyone is not true. A minimum wage has advantages as well as disadvantages. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as the government doesn't interfere, the 'invisible hand' will take care of market prices. It may be appealing to believe that the economy regulates itself by settling prices at a point where supply and demand are equal, resulting in an economic equilibrium, but this isn't always the case. At some points interference is necessary. That may mean establishing a minimum wage.

One more thing I read in your post was that society might eventually collapse if a certain minimum wage would be established, because of too many people getting unemployed? It's such an extreme statement, it would never get so far.

Keep in mind that I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the minimum wage, I'm just saying it's a subject that requires nuancing. Minimum wage is not merely right or wrong.

[-*inS*-]

My English probably isn't good enough to join this discussion, but I'll try.

Insa, saying minimum wage is a bad thing for almost everyone is not true. A minimum wage has advantages as well as disadvantages. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as the government doesn't interfere, the 'invisible hand' will take care of market prices. It may be appealing to believe that the economy regulates itself by settling prices at a point where supply and demand are equal, resulting in an economic equilibrium, but this isn't always the case. At some points interference is necessary. That may mean establishing a minimum wage.

Oh government regulation is definitely needed in some of more sparsely populated areas where markets don't work to their fullest extent, but in any city there is enough competition to take care of prices.

One more thing I read in your post was that society might eventually collapse if a certain minimum wage would be established, because of too many people getting unemployed? It's such an extreme statement, it would never get so far.

I was giving an extreme example where the government doubled the minimum wage overnight and did nothing else. Of course it's not realistic that they would do that, the statement was true nonetheless. It was an extreme example definitely, but it was the easiest way to put my point.

Keep in mind that I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the minimum wage, I'm just saying it's a subject that requires nuancing. Minimum wage is not merely right or wrong.

It's not right or wrong per se, however the real question is, is it the best system we can have?

I'd say it's not.

[Lucifer]

My English probably isn't good enough to join this discussion, but I'll try.

Insa, saying minimum wage is a bad thing for almost everyone is not true. A minimum wage has advantages as well as disadvantages. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as the government doesn't interfere, the 'invisible hand' will take care of market prices. It may be appealing to believe that the economy regulates itself by settling prices at a point where supply and demand are equal, resulting in an economic equilibrium, but this isn't always the case. At some points interference is necessary. That may mean establishing a minimum wage.

Oh government regulation is definitely needed in some of more sparsely populated areas where markets don't work to their fullest extent, but in any city there is enough competition to take care of prices.

What about price-fixing? Apple, Google, and Microsoft all got into trouble recently because they agreed not to hire each other's top developers, thus allowing each to pay less than the developers were worth. There's your "free market" in action, bud.

One more thing I read in your post was that society might eventually collapse if a certain minimum wage would be established, because of too many people getting unemployed? It's such an extreme statement, it would never get so far.

I was giving an extreme example where the government doubled the minimum wage overnight and did nothing else. Of course it's not realistic that they would do that, the statement was true nonetheless. It was an extreme example definitely, but it was the easiest way to put my point.

Incremental increases to the same amount won't cause the same collapse. Each increase (and there have been some under Republicans) has been followed by a period of stabilization. Increasing minimum wage is well-known as only a short-term fix to particular problems. Long term? I'm now making minimum wage (when I don't hit my base, I'm a commission mechanic) when 12 years ago I would have been making two dollars more than minimum wage. Companies often don't adjust wages when their employees aren't *at* minimum wage, so raising it only helps people making minimum wage.

Keep in mind that I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the minimum wage, I'm just saying it's a subject that requires nuancing. Minimum wage is not merely right or wrong.

It's not right or wrong per se, however the real question is, is it the best system we can have?

I'd say it's not.

I agree it's not the "best" system we can have, but as part of a well-regulated market that protects the freedom of the workers and tries to root out monopoly so that the market itself can remain free, I think it's an important cornerstone.

[AI-team]

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/z ... ed_states/

tl;dr: Obama is answering YOUR questions

[-*inS*-]

My English probably isn't good enough to join this discussion, but I'll try.

Insa, saying minimum wage is a bad thing for almost everyone is not true. A minimum wage has advantages as well as disadvantages. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as the government doesn't interfere, the 'invisible hand' will take care of market prices. It may be appealing to believe that the economy regulates itself by settling prices at a point where supply and demand are equal, resulting in an economic equilibrium, but this isn't always the case. At some points interference is necessary. That may mean establishing a minimum wage.

Oh government regulation is definitely needed in some of more sparsely populated areas where markets don't work to their fullest extent, but in any city there is enough competition to take care of prices.

What about price-fixing? Apple, Google, and Microsoft all got into trouble recently because they agreed not to hire each other's top developers, thus allowing each to pay less than the developers were worth. There's your "free market" in action, bud.

Hah you caught me , I only implied competition in areas, but I also meant competition in industries. The weaknesses of markets are well known.

Here's an interesting paper about Hungary increasing their minimum wage. Not exactly the end of society, but not the messiah some think it is.

[Phytotron]

Looks like* 'ins' just began Intro to Mainstream Economics 101—that is, worn-out, discredited free-market laissez-faire capitalist economics. A lot of theorizing about idealized and non-existent economic circumstances—a singular (as opposed to mixed), entirely free, laissez-faire market economy, something which has never existed—without looking at actual economies or history in the real world, you know, empirically. This is why they say people invented economists to make astrologists look good.

When actual empirical data are studied, it's found that at worst raising the minimum wage has a negligible to minimally negative effect on employment (see Card&Krueger, 1995, and subsequent economic studies), one far outweighed first by other forces in the economy, and moreover by the benefit of people having a livable wage. Furthermore, in your classical proposition, labor is nothing more than another commodity; the wage a person can command has nothing to do with how much they need to make to support a family or to be part of the broader society. Sorry, I won't adopt that sort of amorality. As Abe Lincoln said, "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Fact is, real wages are the lowest they've been since the mid-60's. Small businesses are being destroyed not by wages, but by big boxes, online retailers (and yes, piracy), and outsourcing. How's unemployment? Did a rise in wages cause this depression?

Elimination of a minimum wage means either deeper and broader poverty with a permanent serf-labor underclass, and/or greater expansion of the welfare state to compensate for the now practically useless wages. We already have too many wage slaves in this country; you'd have it be worse.

“We need a counterweight to the power of big money in this country,” implores Krugman, citing union organizing, raising the minimum wage and guaranteed health insurance as steps that would help relieve the economic situation. “All of the things that would make life a little less insecure for the American worker would also increase that worker’s bargaining power and help to redress this imbalance in our society.”

The overall economic view you're espousing would result in greater income inequality, as well as an unstable boom-and-bust economy, with deep recessions and depressions coming on a regular basis.

That is, unless all this is actually your roundabout way of arguing for communism or anarcho-syndicalism, both of which would also eliminate the wage system. Is that it?


Surprisingly, Rmoney had at one time actually proposed not only a (modest) increase in the Federal minimum wage, but even permanently indexing it to inflation (good both for workers and for business, because of its predictability)—a position he held as Governor, right up until February this year. Then the right-wingers got wind of it and threw a monumental fit, as they do, and unsurprisingly he backed down from and reversed his position on it. Now his position seems to be just leaving it as is.


By the way, why did you bring all that shit in your original post into this thread anyway? Certainly the first two subjects have absolutely no relevance in this campaign, and only in the way I managed to bring it back around to Rmoney's position on the minimum wage is your claptrap about eliminating the minimum wage even remotely related to this campaign and thread. Yeah, we get it, you like weed, you think exploiting women as sexual objects for your self-serving gratification is cool (can't get any otherwise?), and you're in Econ 101 and want to show off what you just learned. But why here?


* True or not, nevertheless looks like.

EDITS: Spelling/typos, organization.

[epsy]

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/z ... ed_states/

tl;dr: Obama is answering YOUR questions

Yeah. That went on for long. For the reddit admins that is. Here's a formatted summary of most of the (10) questions Barack Obama answered.

[Phytotron]

Over the longer term, I think we need to seriously consider mobilizing a constitutional amendment process to overturn Citizens United (assuming the Supreme Court doesn't revisit it).

Huzzah!

Further, in so doing overturn the concept of "corporate personhood" altogether. A corporation is an artificial entity, existing solely on paper, chartered by the state. It is not a person.

[Lucifer]

Am I the only one who read his answers in his voice?

[-*inS*-]

Looks like* 'ins' just began Intro to Mainstream Economics 101

I'm actually graduating from Carnegie Mellon University as a double major in Mechanical Engineering and Economics (and a philosophy minor!) next year. Didn't even bother to read the rest of your post after you cited Card&Krueger . Seriously do you have any experience in economics ? (rhetorical question)

Just because you're ancient doesn't make you wise.

[sinewav]

Seriously do you have any experience in economics?

Seriously, what does that even mean? What is your experience in economics? You read some books and took a few tests? Anyone can do that. There are only a few people out there in the world who actually create policy and see the results from it. Are you one of them?

I experience economics every day, in how the policies other people make affect me, and how I make my own decisions, and how those decisions affect others. So I guess I have experience in economics, just like you.

Stick to mechanical engineering. At least that is useful.