Aliases and the Ladle, Let's discuss and do something.

[Concord]

I'm not playing in another Ladle if any more rules are added.

a lot of you don't get it. you don't get how it is supposed to work because you weren't there.

[compguygene]

I would add in that your authentication should not be hidden, which would confirm the registered GID.

Thanks, I meant to put that as well and forgot.


@Concord Sorry to hear that you feel that way. However, I think the community sees a need to protect things in this way. If we don't, this will happen again and again.

[Concord]

no, you're making it worse

the Ladle ran for a while without rules and it was far better than it is today

when there was conflict people dealt with it instead of tacking on fancy procedures to make themselves feel big

don't be sorry, just stop and go away

[PokeMaster]

Edit: going to maybe hold off on this post for a while after thinking about what Concord said.

[Concord]

you know what used to be on the Guidelines page

Elect a Team Captain who you can trust

that's the only thing we need. trustworthy captains

that's no longer there

today, we have:

"Regarding times, if an opponent team has not shown up on time and the opponent team is not currently engaged in an earlier scheduled match, then the match can begin even if the opponent team is not full strength. A team can decide to give the opponent team a maximum of 10 minutes to prepare themselves. A forfeit is considered a bye. After the opening rounds, players may take no longer than 10 minutes between finals to organize themselves for the next match."

and blah blah blah


none of you new players know how handle yourself.
you have no respect for the game or for your opponent. that's because the rules eliminate most of the need for responsible individuals.
except in instances like this one. and you're so conditioned, you automatically start talking about adding number lists of new rules and bullet points and other crap.
You're not running a country here. It's a very simple tournament. You sign up and you play. Done.
We don't need a legal system, just stop walking around with your prick out.

[Concord]

and I don't care about the aliases or people signing up twice. sign up on every team. it doesn't matter what team you're signed up for.
once upon a time, you didn't even need to list players at all

what I care about is these people lying to their teammates. it's insulting that preserving the secrecy of an alias took precedence over honesty with their clans. since when is it that important?

It's never been about winning. It's not about statistics. It's not about player ratings.
It's about respect. It's about playing the game.

you play hard and you play fair because that's what you want your opponent to do.
And you use a real name because that's what you want your opponent to use. it's kindergarten stuff.

[nux]

1. All players must sign up using GID.
2. That GID will be the same one that has been used in prior Ladles. Perhaps if you want to use a new GID, you have to announce it on the forums before sign-ups close.
3. No sharing of GID's. The GID you use will be yours and yours alone.
4. No use proxies to edit the wiki. To be enforced with a Wiki bot.
5. Aliases are fine. Since you are identifying yourself by GID, you should feel free to use whatever username in-game you wish to.
6. Players not listed on the challenge board can sub in the day of the Ladle, provided that that login with a GID. The GID used should be one that they have used in prior Ladles to prevent a circumvention of the rules.
Please keep any discussion of punishment for Team Baylife and Ladle 57 in the appropriate threads. This thread is about preventing future problems.

2. Disagree, GID should be used to prevent people from playing in 2 teams at the same time, there should be no rule about playing in any previous ladle. Ladle is supposed to be an open tournament, this way it would make it private. If you havent played any ladle before, can you join next one? On what grounds is a new player allowed to play? Whats there to stop a player with 2 GID from playing on two separate teams? I think this rule will drive away new players, or make it tedious for them.

Other than that, the other rules are good.

@Concord: this happens EVERYWHERE, every community needs to expand their rules as the members number grows. Bad stuff always happens, and rules need to be readjusted to cover those cases. Believing it wont change its naive. Im afraid you will either have to deal with the changes, or make your own tournament with your own rules and dictate them however you want. But dont take me wrong, i do know what you are talking about, i have seen several communities change over time and its always a little painful to see what once was a perfect system destroyed by "new people". But this is how things are, and theres not much you can do to change this. Believe me, ive tried.

[Concord]

who are you?

we already tried adding new rules. it didn't work. that's why we're here again. surely you can't be new enough not to have been around for the last time. or the time before it.

[Lucifer]

Ok, I didn't read the whole thread because I came up with one unavoidable fact: It's time to setup a single Ladle authority, and have a small group of people maintain it.

I'm working with Python and Django right now, and haven't worked up a production deployment, and have no interest in ever going back to PHP unless I'm being paid to do so. I can probably find some time to create a basic "user sign up" authority for the Ladle, but someone else would have to deploy it (and it'll be python + django).

The authority will have to be really anally-retentive about privacy, and *need* to store some private information that identifies people. Email address, maybe? SSN obviously not. It should also store the aliases under which they've played in the past. It's not necessary at this time to track teams with it, but consideration should be given to doing so, and ultimately putting the software in place to manage the Ladle.

It's gotten too big, it's outgrown the wiki. It's time.

[nux]

@Concord: n

@Lucifer: i already proposed something like that, you can check the responses from the community here.

[Concord]

@Concord: n

who are you?

[Lucifer]

@Lucifer: i already proposed something like that, you can check the responses from the community here.

The community looks largely supportive. Seems the main fear is the Ladle remaining flexible.

The basic grunt of what I'm suggesting is simply an armathentication authority dedicated to the ladle. It would allow aliases, provided users authenticate as the user they signed up for the Ladle with. That should satisfy everybody on what aliases can and can't be. Actual enforcement still happens at the ground level, as it always has. Given time and energy, some enforcement can be automated, but must still respect the free form of the Ladle.

It should also track teams and signups at some point, but that isn't necessary to begin with. It is only necessary to have a single Ladle authority for who's playing and who's not, and that it have some way to check the uniqueness of players (e.g. by keeping an email address for each one).

There's plenty that can be added later, as people see fit.

If there's already an app that will do that, and maintain the free form of the Ladle, then why aren't y'all switching to that? Use the wiki for what it is, but push signups into a place more suited to handle them? The Ladle's growing still, as far as I can tell, the growth has to be accommodated, and the self-organized tournament is starting to show how it can't handle it. So, self-organize something that can handle it.

[ElmosWorld]

@Concord: n

who are you?

http://www.unaclan.smfnew.com/index.php?topic=1207.0

[compguygene]

no, you're making it worse

the Ladle ran for a while without rules and it was far better than it is today

when there was conflict people dealt with it instead of tacking on fancy procedures to make themselves feel big

don't be sorry, just stop and go away

Ahhh, the nostalgia card.....

So, what you are saying is that we have NO NEED to address the issue of aliases. I call BS on that. Do you really think that if all we do is punish the people involved, and do nothing to prevent this from happening again? First of all you are assuming that anybody involved will be punished at all. The last time this issue came up, with Team Binary, and a PM Vote Trial was issued, I was a server admin for said Ladle. For the record, I voted, on the basis of poor sportmanship to punish people involved. I was one of only a few that voted that way! Read the current PM Trial Thread. People already are talking about how we can only punish people for rules violated.
I know you hate that we have the rules that we have, but the number of people and teams have increased enough from those early days enough that rules are really needed to manage this thing. When we decided to implement a system of rules, we crossed the a bridge and burned it behind us. I am not really proposing a ton of rules either. Just a few rules to make everybody actually prove who they are for the tournament.
People can still have the fun of making a team of P1, P2, P3, P4, P5, and P6.
However, it appears from what has come out that with our existing structure, a team was formed with possibly less that the needed 4 minimum players to play! If we don't do something about this now, then in a few Ladles, somebody is gonna remember Baylife's win and do the same darned thing again. I agree that in a better world where people had honor, all these rules would be unneeded at best, because the community would just censure anybody that showed bad morals and ethics. We are NOT living in such a world.
How many people have said, "its just a videogame", "your mad just because we won", etc. etc. Don't you get it? Rules are made for the unruly. We have enough unruly people that we need some rules.
If you want to keep the integrity of the Ladle intact, we need to deal with this. To a new team, things can look pretty rigged as it is with just the same teams usually winning Ladles. We all know that is a natural effect of the best talent gathering together.
Let's pretend that Ladle 56 was held after the rule changes I am recommending. Baylife would have had at least 4 players signed up before the Challenge Board was locked. The clans that Baylife drew from would have all known what was happening, so no deception there. Baylife plays as We Will Win The Ladle but logged in as the known players they are. Nobody would have complained about them winning or the manner in which it happened. The end result: All star teams can form, and win. Nobody gets hurt feelings.
How is that a worse result than what happened in Ladle 56?

Concord, if you are gonna take this stance, then you need to do it right. Roll back everything to how it was before Ladle 16. Get rid of all those pesky rules. I am curious to see how many people are willing to do that.

[Word]

I thought some of the things I wrote in my long post would provide a convenient solution without adding new rules, but obviously most people here didn't bother to read it and now seem to start from 0.

The people who think this isn't really a problem (vov, Fate, Slov, Gaz - some of the most intelligent people on these forums ) need to understand why a ladle win (or just an ordinary game) isn't worth anything when nobody knows who won, or who you played against (then why organize a tournament?), leave alone that it's cheating (given that your opponent sticks to the rules while you don't).

Another thing some people don't seem to understand (compguy, n) is that the rules we already have were undermined by people who don't care much about them. New rules and punishment won't change anything because the problem will persist.

Change the attitude of the people who take part (see my other post, kick people during matches if necessary, talk to the team leaders who refuse to follow the rules) and/or add some kind of IP filter in-game that makes it impossible to play for another team (with some exceptions, i.e. siblings playing for different teams - see other post). I don't really know what Lucifer suggested, but it sounds like that would be something similar.

Why does Concord say that today's team leaders don't know what respect is? Most of them played as long as I do, but I noticed that change as well. If you like to re-teach them respect, I guarantee you they'll respect a kick if they know it's unchangeable and won't be discussed (so just have emergency-referees, maybe?).
Well, that's another problem that should probably be considered but I have no better idea for dealing with it at this time. Personally I don't think we need kindergarteners in Arma, just better parents of our players....

By making everyone signing up with a GID you also cause more effort for the people who behave. Making it automized doesn't waste their time and makes it impossible to violate these identity-rules we have.