Homosexuality is a Choice(Not!)

[sinewav]

Oh yeah, I remember that now. So if it's not your genes, it's your mother's genes changing your sexuality before you're born. I'd still call that "nature" instead of "nurture," and I think nurture is what's implied when the environmental factor argument is used.

[syllabear]

Oh yeah, I remember that now. So if it's not your genes, it's your mother's genes changing your sexuality before you're born. I'd still call that "nature" instead of "nurture," and I think nurture is what's implied when the environmental factor argument is used.

Her "genes" aren't changing, its a biological change of her immune capacity. While technically still environmental, I do agree, environmental factors beyond the womb probably play an extremely minor, if not non-existant role in sexuality (we don't know about things like breast milk vs bottled, leeched plastic content, etc. since the brain is still developing significantly in the first years of life, and doesn't really stop until a person reaches their 30s).

Honestly, I was being more pedantic in my response, but its not a crime to be correct

[sinewav]

So if it's not your genes, it's your mother's genes changing your sexuality before you're born.

Her "genes" aren't changing, its a biological change of her immune capacity.

Of course her genes aren't changing, I never suggested otherwise. But it's her genes that determine her immune system's response to pregnancy. I see how you are right though. Either way there is no "choice" in the matter, so we agree on that point too.

Speaking of the brain and it's role in sexuality, I'm curious to know if the future will reveal the precise location of our sexual impulses. Since sex is so fundamental, and animals with even the most rudimentary brains (or no brains at all) engage in some type of sex. Maybe the conscious mind has little to do with it at all? That would be really interesting.

[Word]

Yeah, I think the whole performance aspect of dressing in drag is the big difference.

Can't help thinking of Ed Wood's bio...

[chrisd]

Speaking of the brain and it's role in sexuality, I'm curious to know if the future will reveal the precise location of our sexual impulses. Since sex is so fundamental, and animals with even the most rudimentary brains (or no brains at all) engage in some type of sex. Maybe the conscious mind has little to do with it at all? That would be really interesting.

This research has already been done and there are results. Regarding homosexuality you find them on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_an ... rientation under the heading "Studies of brain structure".

[Phytotron]

Yeah, there's a ton of neurological research on sex and love, including a few books the last few years, including The Science of Kissing.

Also, I mentioned homosexuality in other animals earlier. There's a book about that, Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl, which, as it happens, is also the subject of a portion of Ricky Gervais's "Out of England 2" show.

And, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals

I get the difference between cross-dressing and drag—the latter being exaggerated, usually for performance art purposes, while the former is usually just plain dress. But my understanding has been that neither is the exclusive domain of one or another sexual orientation (or, for that matter, the "T"s).

The 100% was an exaggeration, but I read about "some studies" that put the numbers near 90% for each, where 90% of drag queens (approximately) are gay, and 90% cross dressers are straight.

Yeah, I can buy the predominance. I would like to see the source and actual numbers, though, if you happen to remember where you saw them, just because it's not something I've much read up on. I'm mostly going by talking to people. Not that it's hard science, anyway; I'm sure there are cross-dressers who call themselves queens and vice-versa, whatever their orientation.

[devicat]

I'm just going to throw this out there, cause I think it's probably time to start coming to terms with things. I may not be a homosexual, but I am transgender. Then again, I guess my attraction to females would then make me gay.

So yeah, totally gay. Surprise. >.<

Let's throw the lifestyle argument out the window. No need to stereotype anyone based on certain behaviors. It's equally as unfair to claim that straight people have a specific lifestyle as it is to claim gay people have a specific lifestyle. I think a lot of these points are usually raised in a comedic fashion, and don't really carry a lot of weight, in a more practical sense.

One of my favorite questions to ask those who don't understand that being gay is not a choice is, "When did you decide you were straight?"

I suppose it's possible that if someone were to be absolutely rocked by a straight relationship to the point where they could no longer see themselves with a partner of that gender, it's possible that they would decide to become gay, but I don't see this scenario as being very prominent. Especially considering that a majority of gays realize their sexual preference at a young age, long before any such tragedy could have stricken them.

[Kijutsu]

i'm so confused

so you were born as a girl but you're living as a man?

didn't see this one coming

[sinewav]

I suppose it's possible that if someone were to be absolutely rocked by a straight relationship to the point where they could no longer see themselves with a partner of that gender, it's possible that they would decide to become gay, but I don't see this scenario as being very prominent.

I've never known it personally to happen to anyone, but I would think a person who "switched sides" was more than likely bi-sexual to some degree in the first place. If getting rocked by a relationship was enough, it probably would have happened to me. I still haven't fully recovered from a relationship that ended horribly in 1998. And even though I have a super-cute, funny, gay friend (who had a crush on me), I just simply don't like guys that way so I can't date him. Oh well. There is no justice in the world. *shrugs*

Still, it sounds like an interesting area of research. I wonder if there is way to measure the likelihood of some would enter a gay relationship following a straight one that ended badly, matched with what we know about homosexuality and biology today.

[devicat]

i'm so confused

so you were born as a girl but you're living as a man?

didn't see this one coming

Quite the opposite. Actually, the mere idea of the above sounds awful to me.

I was born a guy and live a life as an effeminate guy. Where things will take me from here; who knows. It's a rather frustrating situation, though, as it actually makes me envy the ease that gays have in our society. Oh, the irony.

[Kijutsu]

oh yeah i read it wrong, so you're MTF? gotcha

[Phytotron]

Born anatomically male. Gender identifies as female, but lives as an "effeminate guy." Do you prefer to be referred to as a he or she? Do you desire reassignment surgery, or are you content to remain anatomically male?

Gender identity is independent of sexual orientation. Whether you identify as gay or straight could depend on the answers to the above questions. But, a lot of transgender people and literature don't use the terms gay and straight at all, they just say, as you did, that they're attracted to men or women, or both.

[Lucifer]

I get the difference between cross-dressing and drag—the latter being exaggerated, usually for performance art purposes, while the former is usually just plain dress. But my understanding has been that neither is the exclusive domain of one or another sexual orientation (or, for that matter, the "T"s).

The 100% was an exaggeration, but I read about "some studies" that put the numbers near 90% for each, where 90% of drag queens (approximately) are gay, and 90% cross dressers are straight.

Yeah, I can buy the predominance. I would like to see the source and actual numbers, though, if you happen to remember where you saw them, just because it's not something I've much read up on. I'm mostly going by talking to people. Not that it's hard science, anyway; I'm sure there are cross-dressers who call themselves queens and vice-versa, whatever their orientation.

I'll see what I come up with next time I'm in that part of the internet. I really meant I "read about" the studies, on someone's blog where they'd linked to news articles about the studies. I checked the articles for credentials, and only skimmed for the academic creds of the researchers, so I can't actually vouch for the veracity of the statement. I agree with it, because for me it reaffirms what I've seen in my own life, anyway.

On a different note, now that we're talking about the T part of LGBT, T's still can't serve openly in the military.

[devicat]

Born anatomically male. Gender identifies as female, but lives as an "effeminate guy." Do you prefer to be referred to as a he or she? Do you desire reassignment surgery, or are you content to remain anatomically male?

Gender identity is independent of sexual orientation. Whether you identify as gay or straight could depend on the answers to the above questions. But, a lot of transgender people and literature don't use the terms gay and straight at all, they just say, as you did, that they're attracted to men or women, or both.

It's really hard to say where life will take me, at this point. As you can imagine, wishing surgery and massive changes upon myself is a frightening thing. My girlfriend often refers to me as a she, but most of the people I know aren't even aware of my situation; only my close friends are. Actually, even my mom knows. Ugh. That was quite a night, explaining everything to her.

So to answer your question, I guess in a perfect world I would just have been born differently and perceived differently.

The reason I brought this up is because I believe it relates a lot to the problems people endure when they realize that they are gay. By that, I don't mean that being gay is a problem, but that in our society it comes with its challenges. Luckily, it's not as challenging as it once was. People often ask gays when they realized they were gay, so I got to thinking when I realized that I wasn't a proper male. Much like anyone, I didn't tend to put much thought into gender or sexuality until puberty came around. There were obvious differences at a young age, but I only really recognized them after the fact. When it came down to it, it just felt like what was right, much the same as keeping to one's gender roles may feel right to others.

Hope this answered a few questions, as I know its a rather curious subject, but I don't mean to divert all of the attention. I'm just throwing this out there as a subject matter that should possibly be included in any sort of debate that is going on.

I once heard a theory about testosterone being introduced at certain points during the development of the fetus. There are certain critical periods which are said to cause changes in gender identity and sexual orientation if testosterone is not present. This is why TG and homosexuality seems to be more prevalent in males. So how does it come to be in females? I'm afraid I don't have the slightest clue.

[Word]

I had a friend with whom I made a few short films for school (we worked together occasionally because we shared the same interests). When she was 17 (at that time we both had to do other things so I didn't really have a long conversation with her then) she got a girlfriend and was convinced to take male hormones, one year later she underwent surgery and changed the name in her ID to something male. The hormone procedure visibly weakened her, and everyone had to call her by her new name. She found it embarrassing whenever someone didn't pay attention and just used her old name and insisted that the new one has to be used (if anyone forgot it, it was never meant disrespectfully - I never saw her getting teased for it, not even behind her back). At the same time her older sister became a relatively famous actress in Germany - I always thought she might suffer a bit from that, since she's attempting to become a director herself. She was always a very unpretentious, prudent person but the surgery seemed to change her overall mood and the mood of her surroundings for the worse. She was boyish since I first saw her, so it wasn't really surprising when she told people that she was lesbian. But the way she seemed to physically and mentally self-destructing in front of us was worrying.