This is a subject worth pursuing, so let's continue it.
vogue wrote:Phytotron wrote:There's obviously no anger here, and obviously no accusation of rape.
You told him not to be so sure about the fact that he isn't manipulating girls into sex. That's bordering on rape and extremely presumptuous on your part.
From a man's point of view, it can be extremely difficult to tell the difference. Yes, ANY PERSON involved has the right to withdraw consent at ANY POINT IN TIME during the act, but that doesn't guarantee that the message will get across.
I've never knowingly raped a woman. That means that, to the best of my ability to discern (and I work a bit harder than your average man to determine this), no woman has ever withdrawn consent to me after which point I continued. I have had several women withdraw consent for specific acts which I was happy to oblige (one of them being my current fiance). I can always do something different, no problems there! But I can't guarantee that every woman I've been with has been completely consensual in what we did. I just can't. I know too much, now, that I didn't know when it happened. And there is specifically one situation that still haunts me, and SHE gave consent. So why should it haunt me?
If you find a girl drunk, and she's hitting on you, and you sleep with her, is it consensual? Later, you find out that she only did it because she was drunk and horny, and she'd take it back if she could, do you still feel good about it?
It's a more complicated question than it sounds, at first. Sure, there's violent forced-on-a-victim rape, and there's drugged-out-of-her-mind date rape, but then there's a whole other area. How can anybody even be completely certain they have consent?
I say that you can't know you have consent until you do it, and then the woman's RESPONSE tells you if it's consensual. If she's not into it, then she's clearly doing it for different reasons than you want. If she's into it, participating, and showing that she's really enjoying herself, or at least trying, then it's consensual. Even so, there's no black and white on this one. It really takes a relationship to determine that, beyond all shadow of a doubt. I had a woman once who showed all signs of loving it and being into it, but the lead-up told me she was doing it because it was promised. Not because she wanted. I don't know for sure, it's complicated, and when she started in, she was quite aggressive, so while saying no was an option, it clearly wasn't an option I wanted to take. So you have to have a relationship, you have to know her pretty well, and you have to know her body language. Without that, or with fake body language, you don't know what you're doing.
But what if she's faking? (Not that I've had to face THAT scenario....)
