NASA abortion and abortion

[-*inS*-]

I like how all these anti abortion, pro life morons are men. Easy to talk when you're never gonna carry a child inside your body.

Statistically speaking, the vast majority of this game's players are men so it's expected that there are a lot more opinions coming from them (resulting in a more even distribution, note: phyto and word, after all if everyone agreed this wouldn't be a point of conversation). Definitely not enough woman here to really have a good sample of views. Actually there really is no sample as only a few people (under 10, can't be bothered to count) have stated their opinion explicitly.

Unless you are citing an actual survey, which by then you bring up an interesting point, would be interesting to see how gender influences views on abortion. Link please?

[Phytotron]

And I missed (well, half-watched so couldn't fully enjoy) the first quarter and a half of Monday Night Football for this.

Woohoo, overtime!

Word didn't reply to one bit of my previous post, including my direct questions about condom use and other contraceptives

I did, I just haven't had the time yet to translate the text I linked. it just wouldn't help to post one small bit.

Yes it would, and I want your answer, not some website's. Think for yourself.

The act of a pre-viable abortion is, in and of itself, NOT a moral issue, for the above reason*; it's a value-neutral medical procedure.

There are people who would say the same about death penalty or euthanasia.

No there aren't! WTF.

* "A potential for life is not a life. At that point, it has every bit (actually, greater) the potential to fail. It is not a life; it has no thoughts, no feelings, no interests. It deserves no moral consideration." That is, a prenatal human is not a person. Someone on death row or in the end-stages of life certainly is (or has been, beating you to the vegetative state).

I oppose capital punishment, and support voluntary euthanasia (both active and passive), precisely because they involve actual persons.

and there's always another option (adoption for example)

So the 9 months that the woman is forced to carry is irrelevant? Do you have any clue what it takes, what it entails—the toll on a woman's body, for part—to carry a pregnancy? You clearly do not

If you're considering abortion as an option, you do it usually in the first 2-4 months.

You're having a lot of trouble following the conversation here, and even your own arguments. Look at the quote of yours to which I was responding. You made a case for adoption over abortion. That would obviously mean the woman would be forced to carry that pregnancy for 9 months. Dude, come on.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm aware it's not my decision. I just don't find it right. If you're pro-choice it's strange that you can't accept when someone wouldn't choose abortion.

But that's not the argument you've made, and certainly not the position of the Catholic Church, from which your position is derived. Of course an individual should have the right to make the personal choice she wants on this matter, whether it's to abort of continue the pregnancy. You and the Catholic Church would deny that choice, unless you're ready to say right here that you oppose any legal measure to deny or restrict abortion.

You're not trying to argue that a c-section as an alternative method of abortion is acceptable, are you?

To clarify that, a c-section helps if a woman's life is endangered by her baby - like an abortion is supposed to help. If you consider abortion a healing method, a c-section is an alternative.

You have no clue what you're talking about. In those cases, it is not a choice between an abortion resulting in termination of the fetus and a c-section resulting in survival of the fetus. It's a choice between two methods of abortion, one vaginally and one via c-section, both resulting in a terminated fetus. (And those cases usually involve a desired pregnancy. Why the hell would a woman choose to terminate if there were, as you falsely imagine, such an easy and safe option for the fetus to survive?)

And it is not always a c-section which is safer, and in fact, c-section abortions are very rare because of that. Hysterectomy abortions carry the greatest risk of complications of any abortion procedure.

I like how all these anti abortion, pro life morons are men. Easy to talk when you're never gonna carry a child inside your body.

Many theologians from the generation that refuses abortion the most were part of families with 8-10 children, or even more, they grew up in a time with far worse medical conditions and far more of their silblings died without abortion, either in childbed or the WW II chaos. Disqualifying them just because they're men is idiotic.

You still don't get it. Get off this idea that women abort because "it's a miserable world" (same to some of the people supporting abortion). Unintended or unwanted pregnancy. That's it, reason enough. And yes, you are disqualified from making reproductive health care decisions for women, who, in case you still haven't learned, are autonomous human beings of moral agency, not your subordinates.

Glad to see you're apparently now acknowledging that it is almost exclusively a fundamentally religious morality, though. (Secular arguments against pre-viability abortion are conceivable—I think Lucifer may even represent one such case, if I recall correctly—but rare.)

[Africa has] lots of resources and water wouldn't be a problem with a better infrastructure.

Wow, you're so clueless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_re ... _of_Africa

Dude, look at your own wikipedia pages, FFS. "Africa has a large quantity of natural resources including oil, diamonds, gold, iron, cobalt, uranium, copper, bauxite, silver, petroleum, but also woods and tropical fruits." Putting aside that most of those resources are exploited and pillaged by western imperialists rather than going to the people of Africa, where in that list that you cited do you see water? Oh, those few sentences later on the page about rivers and a couple lakes? Do you realise how large Africa is? You really think all that is available to the entire continent?

There is a serious, real fresh water (both potable and agricultural) crisis in many places of the world, with the highest proportion in Africa, and it is not caused by poor infrastructure. Better delivery infrastructure can help ameliorate the problem, but it's not the cause, nor will it fully cure it.

phyto you are quote crazy

I know, it's annoying. Drives me crazy, too. That's what I'm talking about when I refer to parsing and disentangling. So many individual sentences, let alone full paragraphs, contain so much that needs to be corrected. For example:

When abortion is readily available, it can lead to some women using it as a method of contraception

As I noted in one of my earlier posts, the notion of that being widespread or common is an utter myth, propagandized by anti-abortionists.

Even if you were referring to pharmaceutical abortifacients, such as mifepristone (not to be confused with the "morning after pill," which is not an abortifacient), that's neither strictly contraception (as conception has already occurred), nor is its use common.

Even if we stipulate cases where women overuse abortion services, it's out of ignorance (since repeated abortion, especially, does carry health risks, and few women would knowingly subject themselves to that). And it's wonderful programs like Planned Parenthood (which, by the way, provides a huge array of family planning and reproductive health services; abortion is a very small percentage of what they do) that educate people on those subjects and reduce their incidence. Likewise for honest and comprehensive sex ed in schools. But, unfortunately, as I've noted, the anti-abortionists oppose all that as well. This is why it's difficult to take them as sincere about wanting to reduce the incidence of abortion, or in their "pro-life" stance in general.

I don't know why you guys bother to argue about this, it's not like you're going to change anyone's opinion.

But people's opinions do change; they have and will continue to do so. You'll almost always reach a stalemate in the moment of the debate (Word isn't going to stop believing an embryo has a soul anytime soon), but it gets ideas out there to all parties—those for, against, and in-between—plants seeds, gives things for people to think about, not to mention correction of plain facts, so that at the very least we ('we' here, and 'we' broadly as a society) can have a better debate next time rather than just repeating the same stuff over and over. That is, if people will actually do their part of paying attention and thinking about it. If not, it's only your own fault if it degenerates into more head-banging-against-the-wall repetition next time.

Funnily enough, my English teacher told me that we have to write two essays about abortion, one advocating it and one attacking it. What an extremely lucky coincidence

Yeah, and you should be flunked if you copy even one line from a forum. (And, of course, plagiarism of any sort, which I have a feeling you engage in rather frequently.)

[þsy]

Babies are beautiful

Your message contains a lot of truth. The minimum number of babies you need to have is 21.

[Phytotron]

I think most babies are rather goofy looking, myself, but that's part of what makes them so amusing (that and their stupidity and obliviousness, and lack of coordination). Then they start screaming and crying, and fouling themselves, not so much amusing or beautiful anymore. "OK, back to mommy now."


Still, way too many people are making them. Overpopulation is the single greatest problem facing humanity and the planet as a whole.

[sinewav]

What an extremely lucky coincidence

Yeah, and you should be flunked if you copy even one line from a forum.

True, although it really is great luck. He's been exposed to some pretty interesting material here as a matter of happenstance. Now he just has to take the next step, formulate an idea, do actual research, and cite appropriately. Clutch, it would be neat if you posted your essays here as attachments after you get a grade for them.

[Phytotron]

OK, well, here's what I'll do. I'll give him a few sources to start with. One I've already mentioned: Planned Parenthood. A couple others on this "side": NARAL and NOW. I'm doubting he'll read any books, so....

[Word]

lol, 4 more posts while i was replying. Good night.

Yes it would, and I want your answer, not some website's. Think for yourself.

That text is my answer. I haven't really had a clear opinion on the subject before I sat in this discussion 4 years ago. At least you'd understand what my opinion is based on.

You're having a lot of trouble following the conversation here, and even your own arguments. Look at the quote of yours to which I was responding. You made a case for adoption over abortion. That would obviously mean the woman would be forced to carry that pregnancy for 9 months. Dude, come on.

I got that, but you always seem to generalize this. Not every woman considers abortion or feels as if the entire pregnancy was nothing but a useless suffering.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm aware it's not my decision. I just don't find it right. If you're pro-choice it's strange that you can't accept when someone wouldn't choose abortion.

But that's not the argument you've made, and certainly not the position of the Catholic Church, from which your position is derived.

A wikipedia link that is supposed to explain how the Catholic doctrine is consistent with this point of view.

It's a choice between two methods of abortion, one vaginally and one via c-section, both resulting in a terminated fetus. (And those cases usually involve a desired pregnancy. Why the hell would a woman choose to terminate if there were, as you falsely imagine, such an easy and safe option for the fetus to survive?)

Then I misunderstood the scenario you're talking about, but the answer is given in the link above.

And yes, you are disqualified from making reproductive health care decisions for women, who, in case you still haven't learned, are autonomous human beings of moral agency, not your subordinates.

And again, nobody said we men make these decisions. We can only say that we don't like it, that's an opinion.

...water wouldn't be a problem with a better infrastructure.

...where in that list that you cited do you see water? Oh, those few sentences later on the page about rivers and a couple lakes? Do you realise how large Africa is? You really think all that is available to the entire continent?

I'm not going to write down the complete history of civilization but you'll know that most Egyptian cities were founded next to the nile and its arms, just like Rome had the Tiber or Euphrates and Tigris in Mesopotamia. Most village settlements in our world have been built near a source of water, there are more and more water wells and dams, means of transportation will become easier and more hygienic thanks to our technological development. I know that Africa is a large continent but it's not like there's no chance to water every populated region sufficiently. Here's another map with the largest rivers. I understand that improving transportation alone can be considered an unrealistic approach, but there is a lot of research that is working on new kinds of reprocessing plants.

[Clutch]

]Yeah, and you should be flunked if you copy even one line from a forum. (And, of course, plagiarism of any sort, which I have a feeling you engage in rather frequently.)

Luckily for me, I'm not copying, I'm applying what I've learned in this thread on an extremely fortunately timed paper. I don't know if that counts as plagiarism or not

And really? I've actually never plagiarized in my life. Out of curiosity though, what makes you think that?

@sine: I have my own opinions too, this isn't the first time I've heard this debate. This thread has brought up a lot of interesting points that I hadn't seen or thought of though, I'm just incorporating them into my essay to make it stronger. And yeah no problem I'll post it once my teacher gives me a mark for it

[ItzAcid]

That is really good timing boxo .

For something on topic:

One of the main problems I have with abortion is that I feel it poses an easy way out for those who make ignorant mistakes and refuse to think out the potential consequences of their actions. There are a lot of quick fixes nowadays and delayed gratification is hard to come by in youth (in my opinion). I do think abortion should be allowed in some cases to be honest, but I don't think it is acceptable for teenagers, or anyone else for that matter, to run around fornicating all over the place without utilzing any contraceptive options. It's irresponsible, selfish, and denies abortion availability for the women that might actually need it to save their lives from birth related complications. A conditional abortion law would be ideal to me, but I doubt that would ever happen. That would just pose more problems as the conditions would be further debated, but bleh. Time to head back to homework. Haha.

Babies are beautiful.

Agreed.

Yeah i'd like to see the essay too, man.

I can't believe this topic forced you to miss part of monday night football! /me comforts.

[theroze]

I love how word keeps posting wikipedia links and states them "as his own opinion" or "his answer". But nevermind, I enjoy following this conversation. Go on!

[Word]

Point out where I have done that. It is counterproductive to post your own opinion when you can't present facts that support it (and posting that one excerpt from that theological journal - that has nothing to do with wikipedia by the way - reveals where my opinion is rooted and I'm not going to simplify it - especially not when I'm said to minimize the pains of a pregnancy). While wikipedia isn't perfect at least it's free for all. If I refer to books from my local library to back up and explain what I say I'd make it even more difficult to verify anything, thus less credible.

I didn't invent the church's views and moral theories (e.g. indirect abortion), just like I didn't invent Africa's resources. You have contributed nothing to the conversation so far.

[Kijutsu]

One of the main problems I have with abortion is that I feel it poses an easy way

What's wrong with an easy way out?

[ItzAcid]

One of the main problems I have with abortion is that I feel it poses an easy way

What's wrong with an easy way out?

In some situations, nothing . Personally, I feel it teaches the moral of, "Oh, go ahead and do whatever. We'll clean up your mess afterwards. /quick fix." Life isn't an easy way out.

[Word]

I hope we can at least agree for now that embryo cells are small units of life...

(I'm agreeing with Acid's statement but I wonder how it is logical to say that cells are life and embryos are nothing but cell clusters and don't deserve protection)

[ItzAcid]

I hope we can at least agree for now that a few embryo cells are small units of life (and leave aside when it deserves to be protected or not)...

I'll agree haha.


I just noticed how many posts you have, Word. Didn't realize you were than active of a poster xD. Congratulations! (sorry off-topic)