9/11 - 10 Year Anniversary

[-*inS*-]

I think Hitler planned the reichstag fire!

lol u r lyk totelly dum for implyeng this insert a pic hurr of how dum i think u r

omg insa u r lyke so awsum pls give me sum attention pls pls pls

k

[Kijutsu]

...

I hope the rest got my point, although this shouldn't turn into a conspiracy theory thread.

[Phytotron]

Everything man-made is biased

objectivity is defined subjectively

the truth isn't objective

You show a perfectly logical statement to a four year-old and they think it's loony. They show you something rational and you think they're silly. Point of view. Rationality, like religion, doesn't actually exist. They're all beliefs.

Postmodernist, relativist rubbish, QED.



By the way, some of you really need to drop this "meh, worse stuff has happened" attitude. Comparing death tolls and being dismissive of lesser ones is at the least simple-minded and crass. At worst, you're implicitly justifying those where fewer were killed. It's a rhetorical upping of the violence ante.



This is one of the dumber threads this forum has seen, seriously.

[LucK]

I think people are suggesting that worse stuff has happened but Americans seem blind to it all. The only time Americans seem to care about stuff like this is when it happens on American soil to Americans.

[Phytotron]

In which case (if it is the case, and in at least some cases I don't think it is), those people should consider that old line about the mote and beam.

Even still, American myopia, self-involvement, or self-importance doesn't minimise, excuse, or justify 9/11. Nor does the American government's meddling in the affairs of foreign governments or societies, propping up of foreign dictators, or encouragement of the Mujahideen justify 9/11. (Explanation does not equal excuse or deserve.) The US (and "coalition") military killings of Iraqi and Aghani civilians don't retroactively justify or minimise 9/11. The US's support of Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians doesn't justify 9/11. Let alone some of the other unrelated events that have been mentioned.

And by the way, the reverse is also true. 9/11 doesn't justify the US's invasion of Iraq or "extraordinary renditions" or torture, or the USA Patriot Act, etc.

[-*inS*-]

...

I hope the rest got my point, although this shouldn't turn into a conspiracy theory thread.

You had a point? Care to explain? You seem to just be mindlessly trolling me as of recent.

[Concord]

I never said all beliefs are equal, I just said beliefs are all beliefs.

Oh no you don't, you can't wriggle out of this one. You never said either of those things.

Well, I agree with you that I never said all beliefs are equal. Actually, that's exactly what I wrote in the text you quoted. And as to saying all beliefs are beliefs, you may have caught me. I didn't think I needed to clarify what I meant by the word beliefs; and describing a word with itself would have been a crappy clarification. If you need evidence, consider my saying something is a belief shorthand for saying: it is a belief, which is a belief.

not all civilians are innocent

I mean, yeah, so what? In what context to the conversation at hand?

Dubstep had posted a graph comparing civilian death tolls. The 9/11 hijackers considered all their victims guilty, and most Americans would agree that some of the civilians killed in our operations guilty. I pointed out that the judgment of civilians as being innocent victims can be a bad one.
I don't pose as anything; although apparently you think I do; stop trying to read into what I write. I mean exactly what I say; nothing more.

Everything man-made is biased
objectivity is defined subjectively
the truth isn't objective
You show a perfectly logical statement to a four year-old and they think it's loony. They show you something rational and you think they're silly. Point of view. Rationality, like religion, doesn't actually exist. They're all beliefs.

Postmodernist, relativist rubbish, QED.

Saying something is stupid doesn't convince me it is. Labeling those views as fill-in-the-blank-ist doesn't change them or cause me to rethink them. Show me where I'm wrong or why you disagree. Stop attacking me and start attacking my words.

I am not claiming opinions; values; morals; beliefs; have no absolute value. I contend that truth; logic; objectivity; are subjective, that our interpretation of things we accept as true changes them into something partial; something privy to our own thoughts, man-made and thus biased. It's an entirely different argument. I do not deny absolute truth, yet it is beyond our grasp.

And by the way, the reverse is also true. 9/11 doesn't justify the US's invasion of Iraq or "extraordinary renditions" or torture, or the USA Patriot Act, etc.

The invasion of Iraq, enhanced interrogation techniques, and the PATRIOT Act were not done with justice in mind. They were done with the intent of keeping the United States of America safe; which, whatever else you can say about them, they did. In the cases of both the CIA interrogation program and the PATRIOT Act, I doubt the legal and congressional support from those programs would have come about without 9/11. As the memory of 9/11 faded, so did support for those programs. Their value to the country, whatever you evaluate it as, was the same on 9/10 as it was on 9/12.

[F0RC3]

Oh sine, u so funny...

[Kijutsu]

...

I hope the rest got my point, although this shouldn't turn into a conspiracy theory thread.

You had a point? Care to explain? You seem to just be mindlessly trolling me as of recent.

You came into this topic posting some facepalm pic to something that doesn't even sound so illogical. Force said the government POSSIBLY had something to do with 9/11, he didn't even say he neccesarily believed it, just that he considered it. Questioning the government isn't "facepalm"-worthy at all because they've done it in the past (see my Hitler example), perhaps in the present and will do it in the future. What exactly was your point with that brilliant picture? Yeah, nothing at all.

I would have responded the same to anyone posting that, you need to stop feeling special. I hate you just as much as I hate everyone else.

@Concord, I admire anyone who still responds to you after that post. F'cking lol @ the civilians comment.

[-*inS*-]

...

I hope the rest got my point, although this shouldn't turn into a conspiracy theory thread.

You had a point? Care to explain? You seem to just be mindlessly trolling me as of recent.

You came into this topic posting some facepalm pic to something that doesn't even sound so illogical. Force said the government POSSIBLY had something to do with 9/11, he didn't even say he neccesarily believed it, just that he considered it. Questioning the government isn't "facepalm"-worthy at all because they've done it in the past (see my Hitler example), perhaps in the present and will do it in the future. What exactly was your point with that brilliant picture? Yeah, nothing at all.

Hmmmm ok then Ms. "I don't care.", if you want to consider all possibilities maybe YOU had something to do with it. I don't know, it's possible so I think we should definitely bring that to the table (following your logic).

Comparing the US government to Hitler is an injustice, sure there's a lot of greedy selfish politicians, but that's where the similarities end.

Seriously all your posts when you aren't trolling consist of are <insert controversial statement here> and <tough deal with it like i totally can>.

I would have responded the same to anyone posting that, you need to stop feeling special. I hate you just as much as I hate everyone else.

Glad to hear that, looking forward to not hearing from you in the future.

[Kijutsu]

[Word]

The problem with the Reichstag example is that the conspiracy was real. Hitler directly benefitted from it.
After 9/11 most western states tried to integrate Muslims more (at least from my perception) to prevent that they get discriminated against or that they radicalize. Nobody apart from real Anti-Islamists, who are still a minority, really benefitted from the aftermath of 9/11.

edit:

(And yes, the governments didn't benefit either. They knew they don't get more votes if they invade your privacy - or whatever you call it)

[sinewav]

I don't pose as anything; although apparently you think I do; stop trying to read into what I write. I mean exactly what I say; nothing more.

I guess I was wrong about you. I can admit that now. I used to think you had some substance. I see now that when you make totally hollow statements like "not all civilians are innocent" you don't really have anything to say. Because if you did, you would probably expand that statement clarifying what you mean by innocent and guilty and why it's Ok or not Ok for some civilians to die in a horrendous terrorist attack.

I apologize. It's clearly my mistake to assume that you think some people who died that day directly contributed, intentionally, with malice in heart, to the circumstances that brought about the decision to fly airliners into skyscrapers. They are, after all, not innocent in regards to an attack on the US.

My own confusion led me to believe that the death of these not-so-innocents was justified in your eyes some way, no matter how small. I'm sure 9-11 was a fitting end to the life of a person who wasn't so virtuous to be spared. Imagine the resolve in their evil hearts as they faced the choice of being burned alive or jumping to their deaths through a 80-story window. Imagine them standing on top of one of the towers moments before it collapsed and crushed them under thousands of tons of rubble thinking, "yes, this is what I get for my wicked ways." These deaths are so just and righteous we should add them to list of appropriate way to distribute capital punishment.

It was my own rampant mind that caused me to imagine all these things from your simple verse, so thoughtlessly placed in the middle of a controversial topic. My, you could have just as easily said "not all apples are delicious" and I would have imagined anti-New York sentiments coming from you. But really, you were just hungry.

In the future I'll be sure to read only your words and not your meaning, for which there is nothing substantial.

[Concord]

I don't pose as anything; although apparently you think I do; stop trying to read into what I write. I mean exactly what I say; nothing more.

I guess I was wrong about you. I can admit that now. I used to think you had some substance. I see now that when you make totally hollow statements like "not all civilians are innocent" you don't really have anything to say. Because if you did, you would probably expand that statement clarifying what you mean by innocent and guilty and why it's Ok or not Ok for some civilians to die in a horrendous terrorist attack.

I apologize. It's clearly my mistake to assume that you think some people who died that day directly contributed, intentionally, with malice in heart, to the circumstances that brought about the decision to fly airliners into skyscrapers. They are, after all, not innocent in regards to an attack on the US.

My own confusion led me to believe that the death of these not-so-innocents was justified in your eyes some way, no matter how small. I'm sure 9-11 was a fitting end to the life of a person who wasn't so virtuous to be spared. Imagine the resolve in their evil hearts as they faced the choice of being burned alive or jumping to their deaths through a 80-story window. Imagine them standing on top of one of the towers moments before it collapsed and crushed them under thousands of tons of rubble thinking, "yes, this is what I get for my wicked ways." These deaths are so just and righteous we should add them to list of appropriate way to distribute capital punishment.

It was my own rampant mind that caused me to imagine all these things from your simple verse, so thoughtlessly placed in the middle of a controversial topic. My, you could have just as easily said "not all apples are delicious" and I would have imagined anti-New York sentiments coming from you. But really, you were just hungry.

In the future I'll be sure to read only your words and not your meaning, for which there is nothing substantial.

Yes it was your conclusion, which says a lot more about you than me. I never said I think anyone in the Twin Towers or in the Pentagon or on United 93 was guilty. I said that the hijackers thought that.

"Not all civilians are innocent" is broad statement and a true one. Al Capone sure as hell wasn't innocent. In the opinion of the hijackers, neither were their victims. Some of the civilian deaths that get rolled into the statistics are the deaths of civilians guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy. What's your position on the bombing of arm's factories in WWII? Or Sherman's march across Georgia?

In any case, let's recognize that on 9/10 America was in a war we refused to fight, and that her geography results in attacks on her homeland being seldom, for most of the world, civilian casualties have been part of the definition of war since the airplane was invented.

[Phytotron]

This truly is one of the stupider threads this forum has hosted. Not that there aren't plenty of damned stupid threads on this forum, especially over the last couple years. The difference is, a sizable proportion of those are inherently stupid due to the subject matter. But a subject of this nature, being discussed so stupidly makes it that much stupider than something that is stupid by nature.

And Concord. "I mean exactly what I say, nothing more, even though I expect people to divine the great deal more that I know I embedded in my short and deliberately evasive and vague phrases; but I'm so irritated that people would assume and read anything into my incoherent, faux-font-of-wisdom proclamations, then would have to come back and sloppily elaborate on them—without actually being any clearer—because no one read my focking mind the first time." Dude, just shut up. You're not insightful, you offer no analysis of value. Stop posing. Yes, you are a poseur. A self-evidently stupid one. Who apparently believes in torture? And an aggressive war that had no relation to 9/11 or al-Qa'ida, or any threat to the US? You still believe that bullshit? You're even more of a damned fool than I thought, and that deserves attack.

After 9/11 most western states tried to integrate Muslims....

Fixed, I think. (I don't think the claim is wholly true, but I think that's the word you meant to use.)