Attributing points in fortress after a suicide?

[dariv]

in my view, what I'm talking about would improve and enhance fortress.

Yeah, it's your view, so ... keep it to yourself, or make your own thread?

[Phytotron]

And just who do you think you are to dictate that? How about you keep your opinions to yourself, hmm? (This is beginning to look more like you picking a fight with me, by the way, if it didn't already from the start.) Oh, no, wait. This is an open, public forum, and I have every bit a right to state my opinion as you or anyone else. How about a little directive for you: If you want a forum where you determine who is allowed to state their views, and only those with which you happen to agree, you go start your own.

[dariv]

"no hijacking/off topic" is not really my opinion, just general posting etiquette.

[Phytotron]

The thread wasn't hijacked, the posts weren't off-topic, and this forum has always allowed natural, related conversation. And, once more, as we've already covered, let's not forget that you engaged and subsequently reignited that digression yourself, after several ensuing posts in which others had moved on. Then responded to comments that weren't even directed at you. So, again, you're every bit as "guilty" of this supposed "hijacking and going off-topic" as I am. Really, at this point, it seems what's really bothering you is that you simply don't like what I've said and just want to shut me up.

[Mecca]

Change in settings might throw that around for a bit, but after a while (or even immediately) people will find ways to make it 'boring' again.

Something that could be said of every goddamn server and game mode Arma potentially has to offer. Not a convincing argument unless you propose the game have just one server, with one set of concrete physics, for each game mode.

I disagree with this. The shrinking zones in sumo keep the rounds exciting, since you can't just pick a spot at the start of the round and camp for 100% of the round (unless you want to find yourself kicked out of the zone).

Specific servers that people have not found a way to make boring yet:

CTWF
Flower Power
Nexus9
Armagoshdarn
Fortress Onslaught
DBD(?) Second Chance Sumo

[Mkay1]

Inb4 lock. Jk... I don't see much productivity though.

P.s. Titan: it's not the shorter posts, it's the ones that are long enough to go below the alloted space. My 'scrolling' gets buggy.

[Titanoboa]

Can you please stop being rude?

All that should have gone without saying throughout all this, but clearly such a simple concept bounces off and flies over some people's thick skulls. "Don't change our precious fortress or sumo!"

OHai liz y dunt u stfu n gtfo k thx just sayin' LOLULZ

P.S.: Everyone > trash> Liz OMG dat wuz so funny and clever HAHALULZTROLLOLOL!!!!

Can't be bothered searching through other threads for examples, not that it'd be hard to find. You tend to do those kinds of things regularly, and I haven't said anything until now but it's a bit annoying, and it sure isn't helping the atmosphere on the forums.

1. Don't be an idiot.
2. Treat others respectfully, like human beings. Even if they violate rule 1.
5. Don't insult or patronize others.
7. "It was meant to be funny" is no valid excuse, unless the moderators think it was funny. Do you want to take your chances with that?

"it was sarcasm", or whatever, could probably go under #7.

Z-man: Sorry 'bout breaking rule #9, I'm just a bit bummed that phyto succesfully derailed another topic, especially as the outcome of said topic wouldn't affect him in the least.

[Kijutsu]

Are you on a suicide mission, titan? Z-Man and Tank don't care about Phyto's passive agressive insults all over the place, he picks fights with different people every day yet the blame is never on him because he uses pretty words (inb4 ban.)

Really Phyto, you don't care nor do you play fortress so why are you here? Nobody is insulting your LMS or trying to butt in, can you do the same? Or do as I suggested, participate in a ladle or play it regularly so you can get a better view on it. I mean, do you even like team games? No wait, ignore everything I just said.. before you start harassing me through PM again.

Also, Mecca's post reminded me that I need to get #1 in CTWF.

[Z-Man]

Are you on a suicide mission, titan?

Why? He's spot on and I have nothing to add. That doesn't mean the distractions here are entirely his fault, of course, with the usual suspects adding heat, but the main point is that if you're entering a debate about a subject you only have a cursory understanding of, you need to tread carefully and not insult everyone else.

As to why I'm personally neither splitting nor locking (yet) this thread, the discussion hasn't been of a high quality anyway with only an infinitesimal amount of real debate and tautologies of the form "that's my opinion because I think so". You shouldn't care about what point distribution is RIGHT and JUST, but rather about what player behavior it encourages (and really. Deducting points for suicides does not make players more careful than giving points to the enemy team on the same occasion) and whether it results in non-broken strategic decisions.

That said, further trash is going to get snipped anyway. No complaining!

[sinewav]

Even though I'm against giving points to an opponent if they haven't earned it (they already get a player advantage), if the following is true...

Deducting points for suicides does not make players more careful than giving points to the enemy team on the same occasion...

...then it could be an answer to the old problem of Ladle running too long (even though it hasn't been a problem recently). I imagine the points given up for suicide/tk would actually be rather small anyway. But the cumulative effect over many rounds and matches might shave many minutes off the total time it takes to play Ladle. Note: this is the only way I can reconcile the idea with myself.

[INW]

Losing points for a suicide will lengthen matches in comparison to giving the enemy points for a suicide.

Let's use 2 points as an example.

A match is 98-98.
Someone commits suicide.
98-96.

A match is 98-98.
Someone commits suicide.
100-98.

See...giving the enemy points would be the best way to quicken matches.

[sinewav]

Oh right. And since I can't give the other team points for my suicide (not that I know of), then this is a terrible, terrible idea which will drag out matches to intolerable lengths. Glad we finally solved the problem. Let's move on to something more interesting, like cats.

[Z-Man]

Losing points for a suicide will lengthen matches in comparison to giving the enemy points for a suicide.

Then do some statistics and adapt the score limit appropriately to compensate. I'm sure nobody will intentionally suicide and lose points to lengthen the match.

[INW]

I guess I didn't make my point clear enough.
Stats aren't needed. Simple common sense.
I wasn't talking about suiciding intentionally. A match where suicides give the enemy team points will end earlier than a match where none are given. Simple. Giving away points gets a team closer to the objective of 100 points.

I thought I used a simple example of 98 - 98.

/me is confused to why you 2 question the logic.

[Z-Man]

Your point was clear enough, it's just that practical effects would be negligible. Maybe one extra round on average. And easy to compensate. So it's not very convincing.

I see two good reasons against suicide/team kill penalty brought up:
- the psychological effect: getting points deducted from your score often feels disproportionally worse than seeing the same score added to your enemy.
- many suicides/team kills happen in the beginning during startup, often because of lag. A team affected by lag should not receive extra punishment, cue moaning of people having to play over the great pond.
And half a point:
- being one man down is punishment enough (Well, is it? Apparently not always, or we wouldn't have NPHs. And if so, why not get rid of all kill scores and just count round wins? Serious suggestion!)

The first two don't apply to the solution of extending the kill timeouts. Startup deaths still stay consequence free, score wise, and all scoring stays positive (also killing INW's last argument). The half point stays. Is that an issue? I don't know.

One good point for suicide/team kill penalty in whatever form:
- it discourages tactical suicides of all kinds. I'm thinking less of holing here (where a good hole more than compensates for any score penalty one can sanely set) and more of the defender suicides, which are advantageous because of some arbitrary choices in the game's design.
Of course, if one wants to discourage defender suicides and only that, there would be other, more drastic, possibilities. And are those things problems anyway? Again, I don't know.