World to end May 21st(this Saturday)

[sinewav]

@sine,
clearly you haven't read it or you're projecting your own bad experiences as a child and growing up in a christian family who was misguided.

Oh, so my family is misguided? That's very Christian of you to say. (Though technically they are misguided for believing all that religious crap anyway, so maybe you're right on that point, accidentally of course, which is the only way you can be in this argument.)

For the record, I read the bible extensively when I was devout. In fact, reading the bible is how I started to wake up to all the nonsense in these monotheistic fairy tales.

And yes, you did cherry pick. You completely proved my point actually, thanks again. Feel free to dig yourself into a larger hole.

[Kijutsu]

Oh, a discussion about religion.

"Shocking".

[Titanoboa]

Aww, I started writing a reply but halfway through I had to go play football. Now I have a lot more to respond to Oh well ^^

Clearly you haven't read it either, or didn't understand it, or took someone's interpretation as your own.

You're right that I haven't read all of it yet. And of course, I haven't had the time nor do I have the knowledge to have my own interpretation. I'm trying to work my way from the known to the unknown, though. What I do know is that I've experienced something that other Christians explain as "meeting Jesus" and since then I've experienced things that go very well along with what the bible has to say about things. On top of that, I also know that there are smart, educated people that believe the bible is "God's word", i.e. a message from him to us. I do not know whether they are right. My conclusion from this is that the healthy thing to do is to find out as much as I can about it. And since there's currently, in my opinion, so much for and so little against, I'm going to treat the bible as God's word until I find solid proof about it being otherwise.
This could seem a bit narrow-minded to some, but I'd argue that I'm having a quite open-minded approach tbh. Just like you hinted, sine, I have a long way to go.

It's a vile book. You cherry pick what you like and don't like about it. You keep the good parts (which are universal "human" beliefs, not necessarily religious, and certainly not exclusively Christian ) and "interpret" the bad stuff to put a positive spin on it. Rhetoric.

I had to google "vile," actually. And it says "Extremely unpleasant," and "Morally bad; wicked." I certainly wouldn't say it is. The message of e.g. John's revelation (the last one in the bible, the one that is mostly about our world ending etc) isn't that "Oh shit the world's gonna end guys, run!"... It's "Don't worry guys, this this this and this is gonna happen and it's gonna be shitty for a while, but I've got things under control, so when it starts happening you don't need to worry." But then of course, the bible is clear on what happens to those who reject Jesus, and some churches have tried to get rid of hell and so on (cherry picking to say the least), but I'd say if you're gonna believe that the bible is God's word, it'd be rather hypocritical not to believe in all of it.

Really, the only way to be truly Christ-like is to forget about the bible completely and live to serve man - without God. Allah doesn't need your help anyway.

Actually, I almost completely disagree with you here. I agree that Allah (which is just hebrew for "God", right? Or arabic?) doesn't need you or me, and I disagree with the rest.
The first one is a no-brainer, really. Jesus prayed every day. He was constantly connected with God's spirit. You've heard that "Jesus was 100% man, 100% God", right? I don't think his body was supernatural in any way. His spirit was, however, God's spirit. This is why Satan had no way to successfully tempt him - Jesus, the Son, was in perfect harmony with the creator, the Father. People talk a lot about Jesus walking on water. People tend to forget that the very same bible says that Peter walked on water too. Do we believe Peter was God? No, his faith in Jesus let him do it.
As for God not needing us... Well you're right, kind of. Nowhere in the bible (afaik) does it say that he needs his creation for anything. Except, his ultimate goal is to have love. Not because he needs it but because he wants it. And of course, it's impossible to have love without freedom. If it wasn't, he could've simply created a species of robot-like slaves without any sort of free will. This post is getting long, so I'll conclude with that he wants love, and for that we need to choose to love him.

Sine, I'm loving this, so feel free to keep the discussion going. I'm far from a theologian, but I'm doing my best to answer

@sine,
clearly you haven't read it or you're projecting your own bad experiences as a child and growing up in a christian family who was misguided.
...
I just thought i'd try to somewhat backup an argument against you sine. Next time can you actually backup your argument against someone other than you don't approve of their religion?

1 Thessalonians 5:15 Common English Bible (CEB)
15 Make sure no one repays a wrong with a wrong, but always pursue the good for each other and everyone else.

Sine has all the reasons in the world to criticize my faith and I'm glad he's doing it. (Though if you think he did something wrong you should certainly not make a "no u" reply.)
If I can't defend my faith it's not worth having it in the first place. However, I apprecate that you "got my back"

(1) From my understanding, you are either Christian or not.
...
(2) Christianity is a religion
...
(3) "we Catholics" had so many sexual abuse scandals in recent years

(1) Definitely! But I'm trying to argue that there are some people who claim to be Christian, but aren't actually trying to live a Christian life. I'm certainly not called to judge anyone though, so it's their business. (sidenote @sine, isn't it kind of gullible to believe that anyone who says they're a Christian is in fact one? )

(2) I would like to quote author Greg Boyd : "Christianity isn't a religion or institution of any sort; it's a relationship. Within the "religion" of Christianity there are and has always been genuine Christians: people who have a saving and transforming relationship with Jesus Christ. And this fact accounts for the tremendous good Christianity has brought to the world in spite of the evils. But the religion of Christianity - the institution of the Church - is not itself Christian. Only people, not institutions, can be Christian."
I think people are more religious than God wants us to be, to be honest. Jesus wasn't a very religious person imo.

(3) I'd say it's because of the celebacy-fetish the catholic church has. Bible says that only some persons are called to live a life of celebacy, and not that every priest or pastor should do it. If you're gonna force that onto someone who has a sex drive, of course there's going to be sex scandals! Why is it so farfetched that a man can work as a priest or pastor and still be married with kids? Where in the bible does it discourage that?

Oh, a discussion about religion.

Care to join us? ^_^

[Word]

I had to google "vile," actually. And it says "Extremely unpleasant," and "Morally bad; wicked." I certainly wouldn't say it is. The message of e.g. John's revelation (the last one in the bible, the one that is mostly about our world ending etc) isn't that "Oh shit the world's gonna end guys, run!"... It's "Don't worry guys, this this this and this is gonna happen and it's gonna be shitty for a while, but I've got things under control, so when it starts happening you don't need to worry." But then of course, the bible is clear on what happens to those who reject Jesus, and some churches have tried to get rid of hell and so on (cherry picking to say the least), but I'd say if you're gonna believe that the bible is God's word, it'd be rather hypocritical not to believe in all of it

OK this is going to be a long post. I'm not entirely disagreeing here but there are some things which don't sound right to me or need some sort of supplement to be more plausible, that's why I'm going to nit-pick.
Labelling something as definite, inalterable truth makes it less credible (like Fiiixxxiiit used to do). The bible is everything, but not clear and leaves lots of room for interpretation.
That said, I learned that the book of relevation specifically seems to have been written to encourage the believers that were persecuted by non-Christian Romans (Nero). It's one of the books that you better read after you know the historic context. Another possible message of this bible chapter is its moral statement: there is a difference between good and bad (to avoid using "evil"), and if you act accordingly, you will be rewarded. If you don't, you'll regret that later. Everyone is equal before God.
I shouldn't leave out Christian Hope:
Christian Hope means that one can expect a future that can't produce itself but is given by God. Hope instead of desperation, life instead of death. It doesn't degrade humans, it makes peace possible. Peace with yourself, the beyond and God. Christian Hope is what liberates you from pressure or the idea that you have to regulate everything on your own. It tells you that you always have an alternative.

Definitely! But I'm trying to argue that there are some people who claim to be Christian, but aren't actually trying to live a Christian live

Yes, but they are still Christians. If you and I were living a 100% Christian life we wouldn't play tron. That's just human.

Jesus wasn't a very religious person imo.

Well, now again I have no clue whether the Lutheran Church approves the Holy Trinity like the Catholic Church does. But I remember to have read a lot of bible chapters in which Jesus prayed to God or talked about him. He is/was probably as faithful as most other children to their father.

(3) I'd say it's because of the celebacy-fetish the catholic church has. Bible says that only some persons are called to live a life of celebacy, and not that every priest or pastor should do it. If you're gonna force that onto someone who has a sex drive, of course there's going to be sex scandals! Why is it so farfetched that a man can work as a priest or pastor and still be married with kids? Where in the bible does it discourage that?

1) It's not a fetish, that's what dumb people make out of it. In fact, it's older than the Catholic Church.

2) Everything on that matter has already been said and i'm not going to repeat it all again but i'm totally against blaming the celebacy. I think this debate is absurd although it's already as old as the church itself. If you don't like the celebacy, don't become a Catholic priest. do you really think the celebacy can cause pedophilia? I believe it's the other way round, pedophiles just choose a job that allows them to live out their fantasies. There are lots of pedophiles in almost any job group that has to do with educating and teaching. I agree that it could be attracting for them since it's a good disguise but this doesn't make it criminal. most teachers aren't criminals either. the argument for the celebacy i, personally, find most important is the permanent availability of the priest. and it makes him different from the rest of the community. you can like that or not, but i find it a good way to establish some order .

btw Goethe's written the best poem of all time....of all time!

[Kijutsu]

Fine, I'll join, Titan.

but I'd say if you're gonna believe that the bible is God's word, it'd be rather hypocritical not to believe in all of it.

So what are you, a homohobe or a hypocrite?

[sinewav]

Sine, I'm loving this, so feel free to keep the discussion going.

No.

I regret I've already said too much. It's my mistake for posting and I'm sorry. I'll try to shut up in the future. Here are two reasons why I don't like to be involved in these discussions...

Rule #1: Monotheism Rewards Ignorance.
Since monotheists believe God can hear their thoughts, they don't dare think critically of God and God's will. Whenever they regurgitate the nonsensical slop they've been brainwashed with, their brains actually reward them for not thinking. They feel like they did a good deed, and God can hear it and will reward them. Doubting God is bad, so don't question anything. Many "believers" put up the facade of well-thought religiousness. "Oh, I've done all the research and God is the only plausible explanation" they might say. Ding! Their brain rewards them again, and the cycle is even harder to break. The self repetition makes it seem true, and discussions go nowhere. The only discussion that makes a difference is the internal one most refuse to have.

Rule #2: Ignorance Is Bliss.
I sometimes envy the religious and their ability to throw their hands up at life's ups-and-downs and say "must be god's will!" The path leading away from ignorance is not a pretty one. It's lined with flowers yes, but the thorns are extremely painful. "Waking up" is one of the most difficult things you can do and will likely make life much harder for a long time before it gets easier. When you finally realize you've been fed lies about the nature of reality your whole life you'll pray the hardest prayer of your life - to go back to sleep. But that prayer cannot be answered, and you'll know why, and you'll regret ever questioning your beliefs. Fortunately, that feeling passes, but you'll probably have some scars. I don't want to be responsible for another's suffering, so I won't persuade you to leave religion behind (even though it's ultimately for the better).


One day in the future another thread like this will erupt and I'll make clever religious analogies using Tron-related understanding, haha. I don't feel like using them now.

[Word]

both doesn't apply in my case
I guess i'm not religious although I believe in God or something like that...

one day i should write my biography here. lol

Sine, I'm loving this, so feel free to keep the discussion going.

I don't like these conversations either...not because I'm not willing or unable to discuss it but I feel as if it was disrespectful or pointless to talk about this on the internet. plus nobody here is a priest. if you really want to get professional Catholic replies get a Catholic priest to post here.

[Phytotron]

you can subjectively look through the bible

Indeed.

What can I say? My point proven, case closed.

You're right that I haven't read all of it yet. And of course, I haven't had the time nor do I have the knowledge to have my own interpretation.

Good thing you're going around proselytizing and speaking as an authority on Christianity, then.

So, I say to you, "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." Go to your room and shut your door.

[Titanoboa]

Definitely! But I'm trying to argue that there are some people who claim to be Christian, but aren't actually trying to live a Christian live

Yes, but they are still Christians. If you and I were living a 100% Christian life we wouldn't play tron. That's just human.

Obviously living a 100% Christian life is impossible for anyone who isn't God. It's just not possible to live without sin. I sin every day and ask for forgiveness everytime I catch myself doing it, but I bet I'm not even aware of most of my sin. I don't, however, think that playing tron is a sin...

Jesus wasn't a very religious person imo.

Well, now again I have no clue whether the Lutheran Church approves the Holy Trinity like the Catholic Church does. But I remember to have read a lot of bible chapters in which Jesus prayed to God or talked about him. He is/was probably as faithful as most other children to their father.

Indeed, like I even said in my (huge) post before, Jesus always stayed connected with the Father and prayed a lot, and his faith was bigger than anyone's. I wouldn't say that has to be a religous act though. If he was as religious as the jews of that time, he wouldn't have worked on the sabbath for example.

As for your answer on celibacy, I'm not buying it. http://www.catholic.com/library/Celibac ... sthood.asp ... I'm going to keep arguing that mandatory celibacy is a problem.

Rule #1: Monotheism Rewards Ignorance.
Since monotheists believe God can hear their thoughts, they don't dare think critically of God and God's will. Whenever they regurgitate the nonsensical slop they've been brainwashed with, their brains actually reward them for not thinking. They feel like they did a good deed, and God can hear it and will reward them. Doubting God is bad, so don't question anything. Many "believers" put up the facade of well-thought religiousness. "Oh, I've done all the research and God is the only plausible explanation" they might say. Ding! Their brain rewards them again, and the cycle is even harder to break. The self repetition makes it seem true, and discussions go nowhere. The only discussion that makes a difference is the internal one most refuse to have.

I most certainly agree that what you just described is an unhealthy way of thinking. But I think that it's a myth that God would approve of it (however sadly, one which many Christians fall for). The old testament is full of angry prayers by e.g. David. If God was in any way threatened by that, it certainly wouldn't be found in his own book, would it? In addition, nobody can reach God's standards by doing good deeds. Jesus tried to explain that to the pharisees time after time (very religious Jews at that time).
Christianity is supposed to provide complete freedom, because anything else would make the love limited (freedom and love goes hand in hand, right?). And God knows that we aren't perfect, so how could he punish us for thinking "bad thoughts"? Then everyone would be condemned. No, and that's where Jesus Christ enters the picture. He (God himself) endured ridicule and suffering and still lived a perfect life, the perfect life we should've lived, so that anyone who realizes who God really is will be able to spend an eternity with him. That's pretty much what heaven/hell is, btw. Heaven is an eternity with God, and hell is an eternity without God. Why would God want to spend an eternity with people who think they're better off without him?

Rule #2: Ignorance Is Bliss.
I sometimes envy the religious and their ability to throw their hands up at life's ups-and-downs and say "must be god's will!" The path leading away from ignorance is not a pretty one. It's lined with flowers yes, but the thorns are extremely painful. "Waking up" is one of the most difficult things you can do and will likely make life much harder for a long time before it gets easier. When you finally realize you've been fed lies about the nature of reality your whole life you'll pray the hardest prayer of your life - to go back to sleep. But that prayer cannot be answered, and you'll know why, and you'll regret ever questioning your beliefs. Fortunately, that feeling passes, but you'll probably have some scars. I don't want to be responsible for another's suffering, so I won't persuade you to leave religion behind (even though it's ultimately for the better).

I don't believe that everything that happens is God's will. Everything God does is good. God is love. Yet there's the opposite of love everywhere around us - evil. Evil can only occur when there are free wills other than God's involved. However, God allows it to happen even if it against his own will. If he's going to step in and cancel all bad decisions before they take effect, that's not true freedom is it? People must choose to love, otherwise it's not truly love.
As for "waking up," just like I implied earlier I wouldn't have a faith in God if I didn't believe in him and I wouldn't believe in him if I didn't have good reasons to do so. If you're sitting on crucial knowledge that would change my belief, go on and share! My relationship with Jesus isn't as imaginary as you would probably argue though, so I wouldn't give it up if it didn't turn out to be a complete lie (which, again, I'm convinced it isn't.)
If my beliefs can't be questioned, they're not worth having in the first place.

So what are you, a homophobe or a hypocrite?

Neither. God approves of marriage between one man and one woman. That would, by default, make homosexuality a sin. Wait so gay people are sinners and straight people aren't? Actually, my bible says we're all sinners. There's also no ranking system for sins, so to speak, so homosexuals aren't better or worse than any other sinner. Homosexuality is against God's will, but so is a lot of other stuff.

Good thing you're going around proselytizing and speaking as an authority on Christianity, then.

So, I say to you, "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." Go to your room and shut your door.

I'm not trying to speak as an authority on Christianity. When did I say that? The bible is an authority on Christianity, I certaintly am not. (And neither is the pope)
I'm not doing this to impress any of you with my faith (like that scripture you quoted warns you from doing). I'd be quite naive if I thought I could impress people like you and sinewav so easily, who have much more knowledge and life experience than I do. No, I'm just here to discuss. Go ahead and quote a scripture that discourages that.

[Word]

Obviously living a 100% Christian life is impossible for anyone who isn't God.

i had one nun and a priest in my family. i didn't know them well enough to say they were 100% Christian either, but it wasn't my point to prove that such people exist. i merely wanted to tell you that being Christian only needs a confession, that's enough. God doesn't care that much about our sins (at least according to Catholic doctrine) and will forgive all of them if we are able to regret them.
And laziness is a deathly sin. You could also earn some money in the time you play tron and dedicate your whole life to the poor (that wasn't sarcasm).

i for one, believe in the pope as an authority. that doesn't mean i like all of his decisions.

[Phytotron]

"God approves of marriage between one man and one woman." Classic case of interpretation. Another interpretation: Don't mix fabrics. Hope you're not wearing any blends. You really want to get into OT quotes?

The rest of your post, like your others thus far, is convoluted and bewildering. Rather typical.

[Titanoboa]

I merely wanted to tell you that being Christian only needs a confession, that's enough. God doesn't care that much about our sins (at least according to Catholic doctrine) and will forgive all of them if we are able to regret them.

Luke 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Classic case of interpretation.

In fact, all of the bible is interpretation. Let's take the gospels for example. The translators who have written the English translations have, of course, interpreted the original texts (if you're lucky). And in turn, the new testament was written in greek by people who spoke hebrew as their first language. There's another interpretation. And of course they paraphrased Jesus to begin with. That's interpretation too.

The rest of your post, like your others thus far, is convoluted and bewildering. Rather typical.

Well yeah I'm having some issues expressing myself, especially while trying to keep it short. Feel free to ask me to explain where things are unclear though. I will if I can.

[Word]

it's Matthew.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

amusingly he's directing it at false prophets.

‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

OK BIBLE DUEL

or God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

"And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved."

[Titanoboa]

it's Matthew.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

amusingly he's directing it at false prophets.

‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Whoops, you're right. I actually had that same page open and copy/pasted it, but for some reason I wrote "luke" by mistake. Oh well.

Well yeah he's talking to false prophets but he also clearly states that you have to do God's will. A confession isn't enough if you don't live it.

[Phytotron]

Anyone who claims to be a Christian, is a Christian. The interpretation that you fell for is no more or less valid than any other Christian's version.

In fact, all of the bible is interpretation.

And round and round we go as you try to muddle through your confusion. Fantastic basis for a strong, foundational belief by which you not only attempt in vain to conform your own life, but moreover insist on others adopting.