age, ageism, maturity...

[Lord Pein]

Parenting is very much like a game.

You can't always protect your child.

Overdefending your child will ruin them when (not if) you fail to defend them.

There are many other things that will influence your child for better or worse.

You can never fully control your child.

Lag.

You will suck at it in the beginning, but will get the hang of it.

You may need to get help from others.

Don't feed your child early game and they won't be a problem late game.

You need to learn from YOUR mistakes and take responsibility for them, or you will suck.

Slide.

[LucK]

Parenting is very much like a game.

You can't always protect your child.

Overdefending your child will ruin them when (not if) you fail to defend them.

There are many other things that will influence your child for better or worse.

You can never fully control your child.

Lag.

You will suck at it in the beginning, but will get the hang of it.

You may need to get help from others.

Don't feed your child early game and they won't be a problem late game.

You need to learn from YOUR mistakes and take responsibility for them, or you will suck.

Slide.

You forgot to mention that if your child is like Airman...you failed.

[INW]

Parenting is very much like a game.

You can't always protect your child.

Overdefending your child will ruin them when (not if) you fail to defend them.

There are many other things that will influence your child for better or worse.

You can never fully control your child.

Lag.

You will suck at it in the beginning, but will get the hang of it.

You may need to get help from others.

Don't feed your child early game and they won't be a problem late game.

You need to learn from YOUR mistakes and take responsibility for them, or you will suck.

Slide.

You forgot to mention that if your child is like Airman...you failed.

LOL!

[ItzAcid]

In defense of Airman's parents: At least one out of the 33 children will turn out right.

[INW]

In defense of Airman's parents: At least one out of the 33 children will turn out right.

Haha.

[Lucifer]

Well, mainstream parenting is a game of sorts. The parent pretends to be condemning the action for the purpose of training the child. If the parent would actually condemn the action it would hurt the relation between parent and child. Of course, the latter also happens quite often in practice: there are more than a few bad relations between parents and children. Not that I am to be considered an expert in child rearing. Many of the people with these muddy and self-contradictory beliefs might well be better parents and

They're neither muddy nor self-contradictory. I don't know where you're coming up with this stuff, but it's waaaay off-base. I have wonderful relationships with all 3 of my kids, and a significant contributor to these good relationships is that I have always condemned the behavior and not the child. It's not a pretension for the sake of training the kids, either. It's a first step towards discussing the behavior, whatever it was. Some things are obvious: Kid trips on a crack in the sidewalk, I say "That was dumb. You should watch where you're going." Kid agrees and laughs. Other things aren't so obvious: Kid says she's pregnant (and 14), I say "That was dumb. You should have used a condom." Kid agrees and we hug.

There's a whole series of prejudices that would just disappear if people would condemn the act and not the person. You mention being gay. How much happier would everybody be if everyone who thinks homosexuality is evil stopped condemning homosexuals as being evil? Throw on the pile that a number of years back, my fiance went to the church she was raised in (Roman Catholic) for financial help, and they turned her down because she was a single mom. Not because she didn't have a baby, but because her baby was born out of wedlock. That's condemning the kid for the parent's behavior!

given the fact that I am gay, it is rather unlikely that my opinions on parenting are ever going to be tested in practice.

I don't know that being gay is the reason for this. You at least have the advantage where you have to actually want kids to have them.

And do keep in mind this isn't solely a parenting issue. I bring it up as a parenting issue because then I've got lots of experience to throw at you to make you shut up. But it's a general issue, and you see me, z-man, Tank Program, and others doing it all the time here on these forums. In fact, we've all taken a fair amount of shit over the fact that we *won't* condemn the person for the behavior.

[MusicMeg21]

In all honesty, I don't think the older players are more mature than the younger players. I've met many players who are older than I am in this game; however, they don't act their actual age. Some of the players are obviously more sophisticated and than others, but not all. In my opinion, everyone kind of acts like they're sixteen or seventeen, sometimes even younger. I've never been able to tell who was over twenty. Some teens act as older than they are as well. I am never actually positive as to who is what age. I think that us communicating over the internet brings out our inner child ? Then again, that's just my opinion

[Olive]

buddha is in everything
and u have to respect buddha.

sold and converted! epic win logic, lets all be buddhists.


EDIT:
and what she said above me ^

[sinewav]

No U

[compguygene]

Once again, Lucifer has made a post that pretty much saved me the trouble of writing one. I would like to add a bit. I am so glad that you brought up the issue of homosexuality. My 16 year old son came out about 6 months ago. He is also a Christian. My response was rather simple, we were getting ready for bed, so I acknowledged his choice, told him I loved him, and went back to bed. I am still his primary confidante about these issues. He has been dating for about 4 months now, in a regular relationship. As to the Christian bit, the church we attend views this choice to be no more sinful than gluttony or adultery, if you get my point. If anything, our relationship is stronger now, because I am probably the only family member that has not given him a ton of crap about his current sexual orientation.
This is the perfect example of what I mean about loving the person.
I can't say as a father, that I was exactly thrilled for my son to come out. But, I would much rather he came out, than hid who he truly is. Also, he is still who he is. My love for him has in no way changed. If anything, as he faces the problems associated with this choice of sexual orientation, him coming to me and discussing with me many things that most sons would never discuss with their fathers has strengthened our bond. How could I choose to not love this child of mine that so dearly loves me too? Fathers that use this type of circumstance or others as an excuse to not give unconditional love to their children rather sicken me. As men, we fathers, to fulfill our responsibility to the next generation, must love and give proper support to our sons and daughters. This type of failure of our responsibility has been at the core of much of the breakdown our western society.

[Olive]

the problem is simple.

everyone criticizes everyone, yet believe they are rightious, on topics varying from parenting to religion.

A short-boring anecdote;
I walked into a group discussion of children of an elementary school, they were discussing fiercly and one kid was all silent. The teacher, as a good didacticus, asked him what was wrong. His reponse; 'I don't know what to say, so I'll keep quiet untill I think of something to share'.

Conclusion, he who acknowledges his own problems and learns to cope with them bares true wisdom.

gl.

[compguygene]

+1

However, I would like to disagree on one point. The essence of true Christianity (as opposed to what most Christians seem to really believe), is that one views one's "righteousness to be as filthy rags" to quote the bible. In other words, the true Christian viewpoint is one of our personal unworthiness, which helps to not breed pride and to engender humility and meekness. From the Christian viewpoint, a Christian is only acceptable to God, because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
So, in this way, we mostly agree. The same bible enjoins us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" and yet gives us the confidence that "My sheep no my voice and will follow me". I think you can see that a Christian viewpoint is not fraught with contradiction, but filled with guidance to continually seek God's help to become a better person, and become a better "servant to all". The Christian who does little to nothing to become a better person, for lack of a better term here, is experiencing very little of the blessings that God has to offer, and really living in defeat to their own faults, prejudices, and bad choices.

[chrisd]

They're neither muddy nor self-contradictory. I don't know where you're coming up with this stuff, but it's waaaay off-base. I have wonderful relationships with all 3 of my kids, and a significant contributor to these good relationships is that I have always condemned the behavior and not the child. It's not a pretension for the sake of training the kids, either. It's a first step towards discussing the behavior, whatever it was. Some things are obvious: Kid trips on a crack in the sidewalk, I say "That was dumb. You should watch where you're going." Kid agrees and laughs. Other things aren't so obvious: Kid says she's pregnant (and 14), I say "That was dumb. You should have used a condom." Kid agrees and we hug.

Actually, it seems that we do not really have much of a disagreement. Or maybe only a difference in how we label various kinds of behavior. Your examples of how you deal with your children seem a fine example of playing skillfully the thing that I call a game of sorts. Although it is a bit problematic to tell on a forum because much of the content of this kind of communication are in the intonation and in the feelings that the persons participating in it are experiencing. The words that you use express condemnation indeed, but what was your intonation and what were your feelings at the time? If the kid agrees and laughs I might well take a stab at the missing part and guess that while speaking a condemnation your intonation was not at the same time sounding like actually condemning the behavior and that you were not actually feeling disgust at the behavior. This is why I call it a game. While the words are of condemnation of the behavior at the same time the intonation and feelings are not condemnatory. It is playing with condemnation, not really condemnation. If you would really condemn the behavior and be congruent in that, for sure, the kid would not laugh nor want to hug you at that moment.

There's a whole series of prejudices that would just disappear if people would condemn the act and not the person. You mention being gay. How much happier would everybody be if everyone who thinks homosexuality is evil stopped condemning homosexuals as being evil?

Actually, this is a meaningless distinction in my opinion. People that actually believe homosexually to be evil and who express this condemnation in a congruent way, will not fail to hurt people who are a bit impressionable, maybe because they are young. Toss in the possible circumstance that not just one person is going to condemn the behavior but almost everybody that they know, and one starts to understand how some young homosexuals end up hanging themselves. That the people who did the condemnation are attempting to justify themselves by saying that all they did was judging the behavior and not the person is just for self-justification and in reality only means that these people are not prepared to do as much as merely considering the possibility that their behavior might not be optimal in some ways.

Of course, this is in the circumstance that people are impressionable. As I have stated I believe that there is not ultimate truth in morality. So, to me a statement like "homosexuality is bad" is going to sound like making about as much sense as had they said "homosexuality is yellow". Many other gay people have adopted the belief that Christianity and/or all of organized religion is evil. This also makes them relatively invulnerable but has the disadvantage that they now are just as condemning of the condemnation by some Christians as the not-so-nice Christians are of them. Whether they condemn the behavior of the not-so-nice Christians or the not-so-nice Christians themselves really does not matter much. Of course, there is also the matter that condemning all Christians would also include nice ones.

The truth in the matter is that as long as people are going to believe that there exists behavior that is intrinsically, ultimately evil, they will feel the need to hurt other people performing these behaviors. Or even if they refrain, their attitude will make itself felt and thus can still hurt.

I don't know that being gay is the reason for this. You at least have the advantage where you have to actually want kids to have them.

Well, this is true.... The actual fact is that I do not feel much of a desire to be a father. For one thing, I think that raising children is better done by two people. Single parents are not in a position that I am particularly envious of. Since I am single at the moment and have yet to experience a relationship approaching the stadium of stability, thinking about children is for me more of a theoretical exercise than something that I take very seriously. Also, now that I am getting a bit older and hopefully wiser, I no longer have the overly romantic image that raising children is going to be this totally feel-good very fulfilling and happy thing. My sister has small children now and I see well enough that besides being fulfilling it can also be quite exhausting to be a parent at times. For one thing, the procedure for eating a meal seems to take about three times what could remotely be considered practical.

[chrisd]

Once again, Lucifer has made a post that pretty much saved me the trouble of writing one. I would like to add a bit. I am so glad that you brought up the issue of homosexuality. My 16 year old son came out about 6 months ago. He is also a Christian. My response was rather simple, we were getting ready for bed, so I acknowledged his choice, told him I loved him, and went back to bed. I am still his primary confidante about these issues. He has been dating for about 4 months now, in a regular relationship. As to the Christian bit, the church we attend views this choice to be no more sinful than gluttony or adultery, if you get my point. If anything, our relationship is stronger now, because I am probably the only family member that has not given him a ton of crap about his current sexual orientation.
This is the perfect example of what I mean about loving the person.
I can't say as a father, that I was exactly thrilled for my son to come out. But, I would much rather he came out, than hid who he truly is. Also, he is still who he is. My love for him has in no way changed. If anything, as he faces the problems associated with this choice of sexual orientation, him coming to me and discussing with me many things that most sons would never discuss with their fathers has strengthened our bond. How could I choose to not love this child of mine that so dearly loves me too? Fathers that use this type of circumstance or others as an excuse to not give unconditional love to their children rather sicken me. As men, we fathers, to fulfill our responsibility to the next generation, must love and give proper support to our sons and daughters. This type of failure of our responsibility has been at the core of much of the breakdown our western society.

This is touching and beautiful.....

[chrisd]

the problem is simple.

Problem? Is there a problem? Is anybody seeing a problem?

everyone criticizes everyone, yet believe they are righteous, on topics varying from parenting to religion.

I may criticize sometimes and I do believe in what I say, but actually a main goal for me is to test out my opinions with other people. I want to know what other people are going to say because it leads to a deeper understanding of what the truth is.