The inside scoop to magglass1's hack - May 7, 2010

[Phytotron]

Yeah I challenge you, magglass1, to make a smart sumo bot (that can be used as an AI later). gl hf

Obsi already has, and it wins (or nearly) rather consistently, from what I saw.

[Titanoboa]

Yeah I challenge you, magglass1, to make a smart sumo bot (that can be used as an AI later). gl hf

Obsi already has, and it wins (or nearly) rather consistently, from what I saw.

Meh, I played Obsi's bot thingy in sumo today. It doesn't stay in the zone on its own, it's just hard to kill. It didn't win once while I was present. (heh, that's pretty consistent ^_^)

[Magic]

I don't really see why there is a huge debate over this, he uses a modified client that allows him to do something that unmodified clients can't. That's cheating. There is no global rule that says you can't do this but if server admins/mods want to kick/ban him for it that is completely justified, as is players vote kicking him.

although hayes didnt you have a client that shows you everyones rubbers?

[Titanoboa]

I don't really see why there is a huge debate over this, he uses a modified client that allows him to do something that unmodified clients can't. That's cheating. There is no global rule that says you can't do this but if server admins/mods want to kick/ban him for it that is completely justified, as is players vote kicking him.

although hayes didnt you have a client that shows you everyones rubbers?

Unless you're saying 0.3.x clients are modified clients, he isn't contradicting himself.
(And if you are, i'm pretty sure you're wrong)

[/offtopic]

[Van-hayes]

Making a cockpit using the available tools, and modifying the client source code(i think?) aren't really the same. Plus having a bunch of rubber bars over everyone's head sounds cool but becomes really distracting, not to mention that my client rarely shows my rubber correctly let alone anyone else's.

It really isn't hard to do, but i found it more distracting than helpful. Might try a needle gauge just because I think that would look pretty funny.

Anyways, I'm not telling every server mod/admin to go out and ban him for using his mod, I'm just saying he shouldn't be surprised if/when it happens.

[magglass1]

Anyways, I'm not telling every server mod/admin to go out and ban him for using his mod, I'm just saying he shouldn't be surprised if/when it happens.

Of course I wouldn't be surprised, but the fact is that polls against me don't go through because most people don't mind the mod. It doesn't make me invincible and I still screw up as often as everyone else; I just play with a strategy that takes advantage of my modifications.

[sinewav]

Plus having a bunch of rubber bars over everyone's head sounds cool but becomes really distracting...

What if the rubber gauge and name were combined? The player's name would change from green to red or something similar...

[Phytotron]

Yeah, I have to continue to level my objection to that ever becoming an official part of the game. Horrible idea, for reasons expressed previously.

[apparition]

Whatevs. None of this shit really matters anyway. I didn't thoroughly look through this so hopefully I didn't leave anything I should have edited out in it. Have fun.
----

åppårition: yo appa here
magglass1: hey
magglass1: so yeah, I use g and h keys for custom stuff, so it works well with the sdf and jkl layout
magglass1: and I replace the default brake, so g, h, and space bar should be unbound
åppårition: okay
åppårition: how long would it take to compile for mac?
magglass1: idk, if I can't compile for mac from linux maybe I can do it on Saturday
åppårition: okay that sounds good
åppårition: what arma version do you use?
magglass1: I recently ported my patches from 0.2.8 rc2 to 0.2.8.3.1
magglass1: so latest 0.2 version
åppårition: nice, i use the same
åppårition: so how does it work?
magglass1: first it has a few automated things, like turning before you run out of rubber incase you aren't paying attention
magglass1: and it auto turns on the inside of corners
magglass1: then you hold down g or h to auto turn on the outside of corners
magglass1: depending on the direction you want
åppårition: wow
åppårition: does it work in all servers?
magglass1: yeah, it just automatically turns for you, so it's the same as if you turned manually but with perfect timing
åppårition: how long have you been using it?
magglass1: also, the brake automatically turns on and off if you're low on rubber instead of just going down to 0; that's if you hold the space bar
magglass1: or else I have b bound to normal break
magglass1: so takes a little practice to learn how/when to use g and h, but space bar for brake you use normally
åppårition: how long have you been usin it?
magglass1: been using it for a month or two and developing it as I go
magglass1: fixing bugs, etc...
åppårition: cause any bugs still?
magglass1: I just fixed a bug earlier today; don't know of any major ones right now
magglass1: just bugs as in accidentally turning when it shouldn't, etc...
magglass1: usually they result in death XD
åppårition: lol
åppårition: yeah
åppårition: that would just suck to have you compile it for mac and then you improve it and the version i'd have would be outofdate
magglass1: well if I can find a way to compile under linux I could send you updates
åppårition: that'd be awesome
magglass1: working on one feature to auto follow my tail, but it's very buggy and sucks, so still in dev
åppårition: and what about others who would want it from you? i mean, people would be pissed if they knew about this lol.
magglass1: yeah, hence the steep price; almost expected you to just say no to $100
magglass1: and that's why I wouldn't release source
magglass1: unless someone wanted to buy the source and pay for the time I spent on it all
åppårition: that'd be a lot more, eh?
magglass1: yeah
magglass1: spent many a night on it
magglass1: a week or so ago I finally fixed a bug that made the turning on outside of corners not work on certain axis maps, but now it works on all
åppårition: you should be a little more careful about how you use this though, because someone asked me if i knew who you were and that they said you were abnormally good
magglass1: yeah; I was pretty good in df though before I even started working on the modifications
magglass1: not just some noob who decided to hack it
magglass1: lol
åppårition: that's good, so you can still enjoy it
magglass1: yeah, plus it takes skill to use; it's not just 100% automated
magglass1: and you have to have good strategy
åppårition: true
åppårition: do you play fort at all?
magglass1: opposed to crazy fort?
magglass1: sometimes
magglass1: but not for competition or anything
åppårition: do you think i could play with it in fort without it being obvious?
magglass1: eh, depends how often you use the outside-of-corner turns I suppose
magglass1: if you just hold down the key it ends up auto following their wall, lol
magglass1: but I could possibly modify it so that it doesn't turn so close to the wall
åppårition: i think that would make it less obvious
magglass1: I'm also working (or rather just thinking about) a modification so that it can turn in front of someone you're following at the right time instead of trying to turn when you get past them then running into their wall
magglass1: oh, and I forgot to mention it auto brakes as well
magglass1: when you run into a wall and when it turns on the outside
åppårition: holy crap man
åppårition: did you get any data/code from the way chatbot/ai bots work?
magglass1: that's why the brakes stop at 0.1, so that you have some reserve for auto braking if you turn into a wall
magglass1: yeah, just looked at the chatbot AI to get the code to detect the distance from you to the nearest wall in a certain direction
magglass1: and to find variables I needed
magglass1: it doesn't use any of the chatbot logic though
åppårition: that's incredible
magglass1: oh, I also modified some chatbot variables so the chatbot doesn't get stupider over time
magglass1: so my chatbot is slightly better than most
magglass1: just keeps me alive better
magglass1: doesn't attack
åppårition: is this an add-on or does it integrate into a version of tron? i mean, would it be hard to use it?
magglass1: it's not an addon, it's hard coded into the tron code
magglass1: and keys like g and h are hardcoded; I didn't bother trying to add them to the list of things you can bind
åppårition: so basically you'd be sending me a version of tron that would have this all coded into it and i could still do all the normal stuff?
magglass1: yup; just don't set a keybind in tron's menu for g, h, and space bar, and you're good to go
åppårition: sounds good to me
magglass1: there's not a way to turn it off though; so it'll always turn when you hit 90% ruber
magglass1: rubber*
magglass1: good for digging
magglass1: turns the direction that is furthest, or right by default if they're the same
magglass1: up to 100 units
åppårition: did you consider all the logic before you did this? it just seems unreal
åppårition: or did you kind of use what would be most efficient for the code?
magglass1: well I added features as I went, and thought of how to do it as I went as well
magglass1: pretty much all it uses is the distance in front of you and to the left/right turn directions as well as your rubber and brake values
åppårition: so it wasn't like a path of least resistance? it was basically you could do what you wanted and coded to how you wanted it to be, not how the game would allow it to be?
magglass1: well first I had to figure out where to logically place the code
magglass1: so I found a section that runs each timestep whenever there are no pending turns
magglass1: so most of the code is in there
magglass1: so I could use that for reference
magglass1: but I did have to modify some other files to give me access to things from the class my code is in
åppårition: wow, i think you deserve to get paid for it haha
magglass1: haha, thanks; it definitely took a lot of work; people say I'm hacking, but they probably just think I downloaded something from the internet instead of putting a lot of effort into it
åppårition: that's what i mean
åppårition: i've used macros and shit so that i could do a perfect 4.9 grind in fortress
åppårition: but that was easy
magglass1: I'm a true hacker; I do stuff myself, lol
åppårition: and very buggy
magglass1: yeah
magglass1: was it based on timing or something?
åppårition: yeah, timing, so it sucked with latency
åppårition: euro servers = teh suck for it
magglass1: yeah; my code can't do much about lag though, so most of the times I screw up while line following it's either because of a ping spike or I'm going too fast for the turns
magglass1: but it works fine with 110 - 130 ping for the most part
åppårition: can you manually manage the way lag would normally **** up by just not using the keys or anything?
magglass1: if you're just following a line that's already there
magglass1: well if you don't use the keys to turn on the outside there's not as much to worry about
magglass1: turning when rubber runs out is a no-brainer, so you need that with or without lag
magglass1: and turning at corners can't easily mess you up
magglass1: but on the outside if it lags it'll usually turn twice instead of just once and you end up running into their wall
åppårition: that's weir
åppårition: d
magglass1: yeah, though I might have fixed that bug earlier today
åppårition: does it just not recognize that it turned and overcompensates?
magglass1: if it was the same issue
magglass1: no, I think it has to do with walls moving around
magglass1: because it might think walls are somewhere but then when it syncs up they move
åppårition: ah, and it turns so fast that you can't stop that from happening manually
magglass1: yeah, it's only a problem with low rubber though; if you have 12 rubber you have time to turn or it'll auto turn before you die
åppårition: true
magglass1: but the issue I fixed today was with it automatically turning you when you run out of rubber before all turns have been made
magglass1: so if the last turn puts you in the clear, it would still turn because you passed 90% rubber
magglass1: so now that's fixed
åppårition: ahhh
magglass1: and it also has special variables I made that vary with speed, so you won't try to turn into a shallow opening going at high speed
magglass1: or rather it won't try to
åppårition: so what made you take the outside approach to development in arma instead of joining the developers community and improve it that way XD
magglass1: XD
magglass1: I doubt they'd accept my changes into the main trunk
magglass1: though the very first modification I made was a bug fix to avoid audio going away and not coming back if you switch to a different window then back to tron
magglass1: that's the main reason I downloaded the code
magglass1: then after I fixed that, I started to get more ideas, lol
åppårition: haha, and they make it pretty easy with everything open source
åppårition: did you have plans to make this public?
magglass1: not right now; idk that it'd be a good idea for everyone to have it XD is there anything like this that's already out there?
åppårition: not at all
magglass1: I'm surprised, considering how long the game has been around
åppårition: people have discussed it, but i could even show you threads on the forums where people say that it's possible, but no one's done it
åppårition: i have a suspicion that some of the devs actually have
åppårition: and that's why they don't play much anymore
magglass1: yeah, that wouldn't surprise me
magglass1: anyone with the skill can probably do it
åppårition: is this detectable?
magglass1: no; at most people will just say it's not humanly possible to turn that accurately, lol
åppårition: hah, definitely
åppårition: if you added more space, they might not notice
magglass1: ah, and it also automatically brakes if your rubber is above 75%
magglass1: just remembered
åppårition: what about tunneling?
åppårition: say you added more space to the automatic outside turn
magglass1: yeah, adding more space will go along with my turning past someone when following
åppårition: and then you try to tunnel something that is less than that space or distance
magglass1: yeah, that's one of the problems
magglass1: I could add a key to turn it on/off maybe
magglass1: or hold a key when you need/don't need it
magglass1: but just another key to press
åppårition: yeah, adding an on/off button would be better than having to hold something down with a free finger
åppårition: actually
åppårition: maybe not
åppårition: kind of like glancing
åppårition: it might be easy to get used to
åppårition: back to the tunneling thing
magglass1: yeah; on/of would be harder
åppårition: if there's the set distance that the code implements
magglass1: it's easier to just check the key once each timestep instead of dealing with on/off
åppårition: what if you manually turn at the right time
magglass1: the distance would probably be 1 unit or less
magglass1: so that the corner turns work without an issue
magglass1: inside turns have to be within a certain distance from the side wall when you get to the corner
åppårition: i think it's actually to the point where i understand it enough to only be able to answer my questions by using it
åppårition: because putting some of this into words is just annoying
åppårition: or maybe because it's 2am lol
magglass1: ;p;
magglass1: lol*
åppårition: well, if you can compile it for mac, i'd be interested in buying it
magglass1: alright; I'll see if one of my friends will let me compile it on her mac Saturday
magglass1: what version of mac do you have?
åppårition: 10.6.3
åppårition: the newest
åppårition: it would be silly to pay if you make it public
magglass1: okay; I might also try installing Mac OS in a virtual machine; that'd be best so I can compile it in the future, but it's not easy
magglass1: yeah, I doubt I will
åppårition: yeah, $100 is quite a bit of money for an add-on to armagetron though hah
magglass1: yup, lol
magglass1: but if it's $10 everyone under the sun would have it
åppårition: exactly
åppårition: so are you just going to sell this to people who ask or what?
åppårition: sounds like i'm your first customer
magglass1: yeah, just who ask; if I sold it commercially I'd probably be required to release the source code since I'm guessing armagetron is GPL'd
magglass1: though if I made it an addon somehow I could probably get around that
magglass1: I'm just not sure how I'd do that
åppårition: i don't know either
åppårition: i just know that there are people in the community who would be pretty upset about this
åppårition: obviously they couldn't do anything about it
åppårition: because some of these people are ruthless
åppårition: there are a lot of ******* in tron who have hacked each other's personal sites and stuff
åppårition: took passwords
åppårition: blah blah blah
magglass1: yeah
magglass1: every community has people like that
åppårition: yeah, this is honestly the only online community i'm involved in
åppårition: so, if you do this, just hit me up on here and i'll send you the money through paypal
magglass1: alright, cool
åppårition: yeah, but like i was implying, be careful who you discuss this stuff with
magglass1: yeah, I haven't really admitted I'm using something except to a select few people
åppårition: and please leave me out of any of it, too
åppårition: i wouldn't want anyone to know i know anything about it
åppårition: maybe we'll include an anonymity clause in the payment
magglass1: haha, sure
åppårition: i can use linux on my mac
åppårition: i wonder if it'd be easiest just do to that
magglass1: yeah, might be
magglass1: we could try that first
magglass1: that'd make it much easier to give you updates in the future
åppårition: how big of an install is linux on mac?
magglass1: are you saying you could install linux, or do you already have a distro installed?
magglass1: maybe 2GB
åppårition: well, my friend used linux on his mac a while back
magglass1: doesn't need much space
magglass1: yeah, you can install it on a separate partition
åppårition: yeah, i should just do that
magglass1: I have friends with Windows installed on their macs
magglass1: Linux can't be any harder to install
magglass1: probably easier
åppårition: yeah, plus it's free
magglass1: yup
åppårition: fuuuck
åppårition: i'm in a hotel and the wireless sux
åppårition: i'm not a creep in a hotel btw
åppårition: my company just relocated me
magglass1: ah; what do you do for a living?
åppårition: i work in neurophysiology
åppårition: in surgery actually
magglass1: cool
åppårition: should i do linux ubuntu?
magglass1: I use Fedora, so it'd probably be best to use that as well
magglass1: Fedora 12
åppårition: do you have to buy fedora 12
magglass1: nah, it's Linux, so it's free
magglass1: http://fedoraproject.org/
åppårition: gotcha
magglass1: just download an ISO and install
magglass1: I'm not sure if you have to do anything special to install on Mac though, so I'd look for a tutorial on installing linux on a mac
magglass1: is your mac 32 or 64-bit?
magglass1: I'm using 64-bit, but I can compile for 32-bit easily
åppårition: hmmm
magglass1: idk what processor macs use
åppårition: would that be equivalent to the queue depth?
magglass1: no
magglass1: can you check what processor your mac has?
magglass1: should be under your system info
åppårition: yeah, i'm looking through there
åppårition: it's not the pixel-depth, right?
magglass1: nope
magglass1: it'd be around where it tells you your processor speed probably
magglass1: x.xxGhz
åppårition: i have my processor speed
åppårition: it's intel core duo
magglass1: not core 2?
magglass1: does it say the model number?
magglass1: T2500, etc...
magglass1: my old laptop had a Core Duo 2.0Ghz dual core and it didn't support 64-bit
åppårition: Processor Name: Intel Core Duo
Processor Speed: 2 GHz
Number Of Processors: 1
Total Number Of Cores: 2
magglass1: okay, probably the same as mine then
magglass1: T2500 or similar
magglass1: just use the 32-bit version then
magglass1: I'd recommend the net install ISO
magglass1: it's only 200MB
magglass1: but you need a wired connection to install with it
åppårition: yeah, i'm going to have to do that tomorrow when i move into my new place
magglass1: or else get the live cd if you don't have wired
magglass1: alright
magglass1: just IM me when you get it setup and I can send you a test exe of the game without the mods
åppårition: how big is the arma version with the mods?
magglass1: 2.1MB for the main binary
åppårition: hah nice
åppårition: http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora
magglass1: I'll probably just have you compile and install it from source first then just replace the binary with my copy, since the game has to install other stuff as well
åppårition: yeah, that sounds good
magglass1: yeah, just DL the live CD I guess
åppårition: okay
magglass1: http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/f ... 6-Live.iso
magglass1: and maybe you'll like it better than Mac and consider switching
åppårition: i'm just gonna let this DL overnight and see if it works
magglass1: alright
åppårition: are you usually online throughout the weekend at all?
magglass1: I'm online 24/7, but not always at my computer
åppårition: okay, cool. i'll just send you a message when i have this stuff ready
åppårition: sound good?
magglass1: yup, perfect
åppårition: aight, have a good night man
magglass1: thanks, you too

[magglass1]

Whatevs. None of this shit really matters anyway. I didn't thoroughly look through this so hopefully I didn't leave anything I should have edited out in it. Have fun.

haha, wow. I think at most you're just going to bore people to death who actually take the time to read it, lol.

[apparition]

Totes agreed man! But I expected you to post an explanation of your client modifications by now. And people asked me to put it back up, so here it is. This is as close as we're gonna get. I don't give a fart about whining about whether it's cheating, obviously, but people can learn from your actual words this way.

[magglass1]

Totes agreed man! But I expected you to post an explanation of your client modifications by now. And people asked me to put it back up, so here it is. This is as close as we're gonna get. I don't give a fart about whining about whether it's cheating, obviously, but people can learn from your actual words this way.

Yeah; saves me from having to explain it all again or to every person that asks (which I don't).

[gawdzilla]

Wait, so now you're gonna make profit off your aimbot?

lol ******* lol

[Jonathan]

magglass1: haha, thanks; it definitely took a lot of work; people say I'm hacking, but they probably just think I downloaded something from the internet instead of putting a lot of effort into it
...
magglass1: I'm a true hacker; I do stuff myself, lol

Don't you see how deserving he is?

[syllabear]

yeah its like if a professional athlete made his own steroids, then he could totally use them. I'm sure its not against sporting rules!