Rubber: What do you think?

[Mecca]

Nobody will play in it because it's not sumo or fort.

Make the rubber zones move around, and then you have an idea for a tournament.

[compguygene]

Nobody will play in it because it's not sumo or fort.

Make the rubber zones move around, and then you have an idea for a tournament.

Noted for action this summer! Thanks for the input, mecca.

[Phytotron]

Totally off topic.

What do you guys think of the idea of a medium rubber LMS server with Rubber Zones scattered about the arena.

Then it's no longer a regular, "classic/old school" so-called LMS server, defeating the purpose or premise. It's just yet another zone-based gimmick server.

[Mecca]

Shut up, Phytotron, you never participate in any competitions anyways.

I still don't understand this "gimmick" thing you keep talking about. If you mean using the zones as a gimmick to get people to play, who cares? The point of playing a game is to have fun. Oh wait... I forgot, you don't know what fun is; I'm sure you are capable of doing a Google search to figure that out though.

2 other things...

1. Couldn't the so called "classic/old school" style you basically advertise be considered a gimmick?

2. When did Compguy say it was "classic/old school"?

[compguygene]

Totally off topic.

What do you guys think of the idea of a medium rubber LMS server with Rubber Zones scattered about the arena.

Then it's no longer a regular, "classic/old school" so-called LMS server, defeating the purpose or premise. It's just yet another zone-based gimmick server.

I certainly can understand your point of view of the ways that zones have, in your opinion, ruined gameplay with Armagetron. But, there are two things that I would like to address about your reaction so full of vitriol. I find it rather annoying that you insist that any only a server that fits your definition of proper Armagetron gameplay can be a Last Man Standing server. To the vast majority of Armagetron players that are aware of the concept of a Last Man Standing Server, it seems the definition is rather more broad than yours. In many ways it seems that if you decide that something does not fit your definition of Last Man Standing, then it isn't. My understanding of the use of this type of terminology in regards to a videogame is not fixed, but fluid as the game, and the way the game is played change over time. So, you find my idea yet another "gimmicky" use of zones and feel the need to attack my use of what is apparently a sacred term to you. Perhaps you ought to listen to what others say in regards to the use of such terminology.
My second point is very simple. Perhaps if all you are going to say in a given discussion is something negative to utterly shoot down idea that someone mentions, you ought to keep such a viewpoint to yourself. You are constantly attacking people's ideas and viewpoints, and turning what could be short discussions into battles. It is very easy for adults like us to attack some of the younger people's ideas and viewpoints with a long post, such as this one. And then, when they react in a manner that is immature, to attack them for that as well. That in no way justifies our well-written responses that are just as vitriolic and nasty, but couched in kinder words and more well laid out text. In other words, chill out a little.

[LucK]

Totally off topic.

What do you guys think of the idea of a medium rubber LMS server with Rubber Zones scattered about the arena.

Then it's no longer a regular, "classic/old school" so-called LMS server, defeating the purpose or premise. It's just yet another zone-based gimmick server.

I really don't get your point in "attacking" zone based game modes. Tron is a game and like with most other games they never stay the way they were originally created. This world is maintained on change and innovation as is most of the things in it. Have you tried playing zone based games? It's based on personal preference no one belittles the game mode you are so fond of so why must you always talk down about other game modes? I mean since you are so wise can you explain to me what the purpose/premise of the "classic/old school" game mode is? If it's supposed to be like the movie "Tron" then those servers got it wrong along with all the other game modes. The only server that I have seen that got it even close to the movie is Sine's "The Real Tron Experience" if it's they way that the game was meant to be played then I have never heard of this. I mean if Z-man can clarify if that is the true purpose of the game then that is fine and I will totally have a different perspective on other game modes(doesn't mean I will like them less). If the game stayed with that one game mode I don't really see too many people still playing this game even though we all know you would prefer it that way. It just seems to me that your views are based on how you feel the game should be and not the way it is.

[gawdzilla]

Fudge sake, go play on your atari Phytotron, that way you won't have to be worried your games will be upgraded. -_-

[Lucifer]

What would have been on the grid in TRON if they had made the move 10 years later? 20 years later? 10 years earlier?

TRON is as much a victim of its own time period as it is an innovative movie for its time period. Why should we burden ourselves with the victim part?

I guarantee you that not all of the music on my mp3 player was made in 1984. Some of it is newer.

[Phytotron]

Oh, good grief. There was no vitriol or attack in my comment, or even any real negativity, as far as I'm concerned (as contrasted with the snipes and snickering from the trolling crowd). I sincerely don't know where you get that. I thought it was a rather straight-forward, neutral, innocuous statement (with possible exception to the word "gimmick," if you find that offensive—would "special feature" be more accommodating?). And after all, you did ask, "what do you guys think." No one should ask for opinions or feedback and expect that only positive, supportive back-slapping should come in response. And, finally, for the "you always"-type comments, I simply refer you to confirmation bias.


Now, on the substance of it, first, the definition of "LMS." As I pointed out here, I'm not aware of any present, nor can I recall any past, servers that are actually last-man-standing only, in terms of awarding scores. So, I've been working under the assumption that that term is used as shorthand to refer to A) basic/core "free for all" or "deathmatch" gameplay and scoring; and B) more standard/normal/classic/old school/whateverthehellyouwanttocallit-designed servers and the associated physics and settings (even including high rubber, if you insist)—those that preceded the introduction of all the "special" zone-based game modes and stuff (maps and extra axes) that came with 2.8.

The point was, by expanding the definition of so-called "LMS" to include special zones or whatever, you're basically rendering the term meaningless. By such an all-inclusive expansion, you may as well call sumo, racing, and shooting "LMS."


And for the umpteenth time (and referring back to your collective confirmation bias), I have never taken a position against the evolution, improvement, refinement, or innovation of this game. Indeed, I have myself suggested several things over the years, many implemented, and continue to do so. The difference and disagreement is in the how and what. I'm sorry that's such a difficult concept for you all to grasp or handle. God forbid someone isn't as excited or interested in the exact same things as you.

As for feeling "constrained" by the basic game, I still wonder why other video games seem to be unavailable or off-limits to you. Otherwise, one would think you could just go play those, and without having to invest a bunch of time and energy into coding and forcing a bunch of irrelevant game modes into this one. If I want to jump around on platforms I don't think, "gee, this should be put in Arma!" I think, "gee, I feel like playing Mario." If I want to drive off ramps and do tricks, I'll play Tony Hawk. If I want to shoot stuff, gawd, is there any shortage of shooting games? It's not like Arma is the only open-source project out there.

Yadda yadda. Been over all this before but it never seems to sink in. Short memories or something.

[sinewav]

sine.wav was eradicated by its collapsing special feature.

[compguygene]

@Phytotron. Perhaps I am quick to judge here. Let's approach this discussion from another viewpoint. I guess the only valid point I am trying to make is this. Many of us are just plain tired of hearing your complaints about zones and the other changes that .2.8.x.x have wrought to the game we all love. The difference between our viewpoints is rather simple. We enjoy the varied and unique challenges that are put forward in a game like Fortress, Sumo, Capture the Flag, and dare I say Capture the Flag Shooting and all the fun variants of shooting servers. You find these to be a distraction and not "pure" Armagetron. There is no debating the vast difference between say Shrunkland and Crazy Tronner Wild Fortress! The difference could be said to be a completely different videogame.
But, I would submit to you a simple WHY NOT?!
The programmers are not only interested themselves, but see the opportunity to make something truly unique. The users want it. WHY NOT?!
You should know something about the forthcoming .4 version that the devs are working toward. Lucifer, that is challenging you about the zone thing, is the same developer that is planning the work necessary to re-organize the rubber code to separate out gameplay things and things related to dealing with network lag, the original intent of rubber.
So, people are working on the core problems that Armagetron has. But, to keep user and programmer interest, you need to have fun, new, things.

[Phytotron]

There are those who dream of things that never were, of cramming in irrelevant game modes, and ask why not? I look at things they way they are with all this stuff that has nothing to do with the original game and ask, why? Har.

-or-

WHY NOT go play that completely different videogame that already has these things in place? Or start up a separate, independent one from scratch that needn't be bothered with the pretense of lightcycles (if you feel so constrained and "victimised" by the concept)?

What's interesting about being "tired of hearing [my] complaints" is that most, if not all, of the reservations I had years ago, that were flippantly scoffed at and dismissed, came to fruition. (For example, "there were always be classic servers." Well, when I came back last fall, there weren't any. People think 5-10 is low rubber. They think fortress physics are set in stone. They can't conceive of a win zone that isn't conquerable and collapsable. They think Shrunkland is new and weird settings. They think sinewav's default settings server is a new game mode.) And guess what, I'm tired of not only hearing about "special game modes," but with the actual existence of them. What makes your tiredness superior to mine? (And what about negativity from others that supports your view?)

And I'm not alone in my position. There are several others who share my view, albeit in the present minority of active players. Many just plain quit playing (as I did 3 years ago), have refused to come back (as I would've had it not been for Gene ), or come back then quit again disappointed or even appalled with the way things are now (as a few have recently). Those who remain often don't want to post about it on this forum because they know the overwhelming culture of it now is in favour of all that stuff and they don't want to get shat on (be it dismissed by devs or flamed by you-know-who's) for stating their opposing opinion. (Or they aren't as willing to speak up and be contrarian as I, or just don't participate in forums at all.)

So, I continue to make this case here and there (not just randomly cluster bombing) so that it doesn't disappear into the aether. Once more, there are things I like and of which I approve (and therefore wouldn't criticise, object to, or complain about—naturally), and things I don't like. And, again, I have never stated an objection to "fun, new things." We just differ on what we think is fun, and deserves to be a new change or addition.

The fact that the present majority culture on this forum, and therefore the majority of subject matter, tends toward "special game modes," it naturally follows that many of my criticisms will relate to that. If it were the other way around, if this forum were mostly people of my view, I wouldn't have as much reason. Question is, would you, in that hypothetical instance, be telling someone of the "special game modes" camp they need to sit down and shut up and stop making their case? Just accept it, even embrace it, and move on—or GTFO? As a socio-political analogy (one with which you may identify), should people of a minority just shut up and take it, conforming to majority rule, or should they continue to make their case and act toward their ideals? Obviously, this is just a trivial game—a point I've made vociferously on several occasions—but within the compartmentalised context of it, I do have a "video game ideology," as sinewav put it, and think I have the right to state it and argue for it on its merits.



All that said, it should be noted this particular discourse didn't begin with me making any explicit objection or a statement of "video game ideology." You've made it pretty clear you're going to do what you're going to do with respect to putting up servers, and I didn't say "do don't it!" Rather, it began with simply pointing out an apparent contradiction in terms, something you solicited. Mecca could have left it alone, but obviously couldn't resist—clearly having got a major itch to get back to his characteristic trolling/flaming/whatever the past day or two—and decided to turn it into a broader issue.

Of course, I think it was rather plain—blatant, really—that he created this topic in the first place as A) a counteraction to subby's "super ridiculous rubber" topic, and B) as bait for just this sort of thing. Once I finally made a post, he had to jump on it. Not to mention seeing it as another opportunity to try and drive a wedge between you (Gene) and I. Hey, maybe Gene will even take Phytotron's servers down! Or at least take away his ownership status!

[gawdzilla]

WHY NOT go play that completely different videogame that already has these things in place? Or start up a separate, independent one from scratch that needn't be bothered with the pretense of lightcycles (if you feel so constrained and "victimised" by the concept)?

That has WHAT things in place? Name one game like tron, where you go around a zone, use up rubber and kill people with your wall. Armagetron is a unique game and I love how it keeps progressing to amazing things. Thing is, nobody cares about classic tron anymore, whatever that was, its ******* boring. And don't even quote me by saying "its not" because I WILL confront you with challenging questions about how much you play it per week and if you play it more than say fort/sumo (this doesnt count for Phytotron, obvs).

Fortress is now even so popular that it gets shoutcasted by a pretty major site imo, and its gaining rapid popularity. I think someone is a bit jealous their server isnt as popular as the GIMICKY SERVAS.

[Lucifer]

Lucifer, that is challenging you about the zone thing, is the same developer that is planning the work necessary to re-organize the rubber code to separate out gameplay things and things related to dealing with network lag, the original intent of rubber.

Whoah, don't give me credit I don't deserve. I've been arguing for years to take steps to hide rubber again; that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Phytotron and I are pretty much on exactly the same page with regard to rubber, our only disagreements are largely due to our differences in personality, not ideology. But as far as I know, no changes are currently planned. 0.4 is going to be "make everything that's currently implemented work".

[Mecca]

Phytotron, there are no other games like tron out there... Why would I want to start my own branch and end up like TR2N origins? This game has an EXTREMELY small community, and breaking it up even further is a terrible idea.

Ok, so you don't like zones because any game mode with them is automatically not fun for you, understandable; but why come into my topic (that was made with no previous knowledge of subby's topic) and make an off topic comment? (your comment was on the zones, not what you think of rubber)

Look at your own server, you have more than 0 (or as close as you can get to 0) rubber, your own server has nothing to do with the real game mode either...

Why don't you start up your own version on "tron" from scratch that doesn't even include a rubber or zone mechanic?

PS: I don't believe that you thought your comment was neutral. You strike me as someone who actually thinks before they press the submit button, was i incorrect?