Questions about the sharing of server scripts

[compguygene]

Yesterday, for the 4th or 5th time this month, somebody was criticizing another server owner's unwillingness to share the scripts he had developed. I personally find the whole argument that people have posited to me that because this is an open source game, it is philosophically wrong to not share anything that people have created for Armagetron that is not actual C++ code for the game. To give you a full example, I will share a summary of our discussion. The person in question is attempting to implement the Bugfarm Tournament Sumo script. Since I have a fairly close relationship with manta, they asked me if manta would share the Tournament Sumo script that he has developed for the Wild West =Tournament Sumo= script. I explained to him that manta did fix a few bugs he found in the script. But that the way he fixed those bugs was to change the way certain features were implemented by using some of the bash scripts that he has developed. Manta would never feel comfortable sharing his scripts because he has created a plethora of scripts that enhance the functionality of Wild West Servers. If he were to release said scripts, he feels that he might compromise the security of his servers. Its not like I have ever seen the scripts myself, in fact the Wild West =Capture the Flag= server that I host on my European OVH RPSIII does not use any of these scripts.
It is my understanding that the GPL allows for this, and also that Z-Man would be supportive of a server owner not releasing the scripts that they had developed. He challenged me to ask Z-man, so, I felt it might be appropriate to ask in the public forum what Z-Man's opinion is.
Personally, I think that the sharing of scripts can be a good thing in the right context. But, it certainly should never be forced sharing.

[Z-Man]

As long as you don't publish binaries, you can keep all your changes secret. The GPL is quite clear about that. That does not only apply to scripts interacting with the server and configuration files, also to server code patches.

Of course, we'd like to encourage a spirit of sharing stuff you make, especially if it's cool stuff. But that's only of use if what you're using is, well, generally useful. Special server management scripts that are tuned to the case at hand and only configurable by hacking them at specific locations are not and would be a support nightmare for the poor person releasing them, so I perfectly understand Manta's position there.

[compguygene]

Thank you for your response, Z-man. Everything you stated was my understanding of the GPL. Also in the spirit of sharing, I am reworking all of my server's configuration file to be well commented, and to follow a good structure. I am in the process of setting up a Wiki and Forum for TheServerPharm, to support some new projects that are in the works and to promote the sharing of scripts, etc. Hopefully I will have a basic, boring looking forum and Wiki working in the next day or two. Other people have offered to do the graphics. Quite frankly, I can manipulate an image, but I have very poor artistic skills.

[Flex]

compguygene: If you're so keen on sharing, why exactly are you here defending someone else's decisions? Has he enrolled you to speak on his behalf or is it because you agree with his decision, then if so how do you talk about creating effort to share without contradicting yourself..

This was my hole argument yesterday, that you seem to believe it's ethically OK to not share, and honestly, it's not the fact that it's his own original work, but an improvement to someone else's work, that I find selfish. I did not even ask for the script. You're the one that even mentioned that he had fixed the script that I was working on.. My argument yesterday was on the reasons of why he should share, not on wanting his script, but you already knew that..

Z-Man pretty much underlined (in his post) my whole argument I made yesterday.

I could understand and not judge him if it was all his work and he came up with the whole sumo tournament idea. I would assume he's just preventing people from copying his complete effort, but obviously that isn't the case. Lets not talk general scenarios. Lets go down to the basics and understand why I find it selfish that he doesn't share; Z-Man created the bugfarm script, then Manta (or whatever exactly worked on it) improves and fixes the bugs, but then keeps it private to himself, does the GPL allow this? I don't exactly know, maybe someone can answer this?

In yours(his) defence that the script could compromise the security of his servers, even though I find that an excuse, I accepted it as the truth, let alone a bad method to allow a script to compromise his security. Also you could have told me you were mentioning a discussion we had and I only criticized his actions of not sharing the fixes and I stand by it.

[compguygene]

compguygene: If you're so keen on sharing, why exactly are you here defending someone else's decisions? Has he enrolled you to speak on his behalf or is it because you agree with his decision, then if so how do you talk about creating effort to share without contradicting yourself..

No, manta has NOT enrolled me to speak on his behalf. I agree with his decision.

This was my hole argument yesterday, that you seem to believe it's ethically OK to not share, and honestly, it's not the fact that it's his own original work, but an improvement to someone else's work, that I find selfish. I did not even ask for the script. You're the one that even mentioned that he had fixed the script that I was working on.. My argument yesterday was on the reasons of why he should share, not on wanting his script, but you already knew that..

I firmly believe it is ok to not share a script, for whatever reason. I think that it is a lot of extra work sometimes to prepare something to be shared. Let me give you an example. Four of the servers that I host, I would not at this time share the settings. Not because the I am greedy, but because they are such an absolute mess, that I am going to reorganize them, and properly comment them, if only for my own use.

Z-Man pretty much underlined (in his post) my whole argument I made yesterday.

He did underline your arguement, but I think you missed the end of Z-Man's post

Special server management scripts that are tuned to the case at hand and only configurable by hacking them at specific locations are not and would be a support nightmare for the poor person releasing them, so I perfectly understand Manta's position there.

This is exactly the case that I tried to make to you. I have never actually seen the Tournament Management script that Manta has made. However, I did ask a few questions about it. To reiterate what I tried to explain to you in IM, manta has created a very unique environment that the Wild West Servers run in. That environment has many unique bash scripts to provide different types of functionality. He took the existing bugfarm script, and made all the changes that he had to make for it to function in that environment. He also added some functionality to the server via bash scripts he has written for other servers of his.
When he began testing the server he discovered several bugs that needed to be fixed. So he fixed them. For him to release said bug fixes, he would first of all have to do them on the original script, not the one that he has working at this time. He has a lot on his plate now, and there is nothing in the GPL that forces him to release said changes.
Even Z-Man acknowledges the support nightmare that this would be for manta!

Let me give you another perfectly good example of a script that will not be released to the public at this time. The world famous Crazy Tronner Wild Fortress. Kyle has been helping me get started in Python scripting and has given me a few scripts. Other ct'ers have given me other scripts that are PHP ones. But they will not share the CTWF script for a few reasons. First of all, it is in such a specific environment, that they would have to "sanitize" the script first. Secondly, so much functionality has been added to the script, that it is an utter nightmare. Kyle is thinking of doing an entire code rewrite to clean up the code and it's performance!

As to your question if the GPL allows this. Yes it does, as long as you do not release binaries. If you do release binaries of an open source project that you have modified, then you are required to release the code as well. Last I checked, Manta is running a server, not releasing binaries.

[kyle]

essentially what i gave compguy was a start towards my CTWF script. MY ctwf script has evolved too much to actually release it as it has some CT specific stuff in it. as manta has wild west specific stuff embezzled into z-mans elimination script. I'm sure manta would redistribute it if it did not have ww stuff in it. maybe he knows were and what he did to they errors that he could give you a little head start as to how to fix them.

If i did not have all the CT specific stuff in my python script, i probably would have gave compguy my CTWF script (actually it is a common script that runs 3 or 4 servers)

[Z-Man]

Z-Man created the bugfarm script, then Manta (or whatever exactly worked on it) improves and fixes the bugs, but then keeps it private to himself, does the GPL allow this?

Yes, absolutely. Though I don't think I even stated a license. Can't check now, launchpad seems to be unavailable. If that's true, he would even be forbidden to redistribute it, modified or not, by default. As soon as lp is back, I'll clarify the license.

And yeah, if Manta solved the problem that the server sometimes gets stuck, I'd be happy to hear how he did it.

[compguygene]

I am going to talk to manta when I can catch him, about how the server gets stuck. He and I are both rather busy on some projects of our own. But, I will certainly ask him how he solved the problem, and see if I can report back to you guys.

@Kyle I am actually glad you gave me the script that you did. I can now independently come up with a script that is different, and perhaps more generally useful to others. As I told you privately, I am a shooting fanatic at heart, and intend to use the pieces there for shooting as well! I would probably prefer not to have as complicated of a script as CT does to run the CTWF until I have a lot more experience. But, I really appreciate the start that you have given me. I also appreciate the other CT PHP scripts that have been shared with me. Over time, I will definitely be writing many more python scripts.

[compguygene]

Ok, I finally managed to reach Manta tonight. I asked him about what he did to fix the bugfarm tournament sumo script. He explained to me that he just couldn't make sense out of the bugfarm script, and started over from scratch. What he did is he used the script that he created for the Ww multi-mode server to control the server. And he wrote a separate script that feeds information to the Muliti-Mode script to add the tournament sumo features. For him, this was the simplest way to create a sumo server with said funtionality. So, he really just used the Tournament Sumo script for ideas regarding the functionality. Unfortunately, this means that his scripts are very server specific. For him to release them would be either a nightmare, or require quite a bit of work to "sanitize" them.