Twenthieth TRONIC Ladle

[Corn1]

I feel inclined to post this for reference;

1 attacker, 0 defenders: 5 seconds to conquer.
1 attacker, 1 or more defenders: not conquerable.
2 attackers, 0 defenders: 2 seconds to conquer.
2 attackers, 1 defender: 3.3 seconds to conquer.
2 attackers, 2 defenders: 10 seconds to conquer.

[epsy]

(That's, by the way, 2v2 conquerable settings)

[owned]

I guess I'll be the outlier, I still think 2v2 should be unconquerable.

You guys are all right, the defense has a definite advantage over the attacking team. The problem with your argument is that once the attacking team breaks in, the tables turn and they get the advantage. So making the zone conquerable would take away the tons of exciting 2v2 fights in the zone that we've had since the rule was changed.

One of the most popular servers, Fortress Café has this 2v2 Conquerable setting turned on. I have yet to see a compelling reason why the setting differs from what we play outside of tournaments. Although this isn't a very strong point as it could be changed pretty handily, it is based on lack of consistency throughout regular servers and tournament servers.

That's a moot point. As you know, cafe has almost always been slow to change in the fortress community. Nearly every other fortress server that I know of has (or at least had last time I played) 2v2 unconquerable.

As Durka pointed out, with the decrease in players on the grid, there needs to be more discernment for a successful break into the defense to positively affect one's team.

If it's 2v2 and your attacker breaks into the other team's zone, under the current settings, your defender should stay back and not attack since 2v2 is unconquerable anyways. This leaves your attacker to get double teamed, which often ends up in him dying. After breaking into the other team's zone, this person is now dead and is watching his defender fight against 2 attackers.

As I said already, the offense has the advantage once they break in. That's all the incentive you need.

Also the poll taken before Ladle 16 had a limited amount of teams. Even then, only team leaders were allowed to vote, clouding what regular team members would prefer.

The team captain is the representative of the entire team. If he/she didn't discuss the matter with your clan/group beforehand, then it's your problem, not the vote's.

@durka I think the 6/4 system was created to reward points when two teams capture seconds apart.

All in all, while I believe it should be unconquerable, I agree with corn that we should have a vote of all the available teams. There's no point in arguing over this as I doubt any of us will change our minds.

[Corn1]

One of the most popular servers, Fortress Café has this 2v2 Conquerable setting turned on. I have yet to see a compelling reason why the setting differs from what we play outside of tournaments. Although this isn't a very strong point as it could be changed pretty handily, it is based on lack of consistency throughout regular servers and tournament servers.

That's a moot point. As you know, cafe has almost always been slow to change in the fortress community. Nearly every other fortress server that I know of has (or at least had last time I played) 2v2 unconquerable.

I said in the post myself that it was pretty much a moot point although it is still possible that it could be changed, i'll still give you that.


However you state that we'd miss all those 2v2 fights. These so called 2v2 fights only ever happen when it is 2 attackers against 2 defense players left. Basically gold, who would be the attacker in your scenario would have to have their defense die for no reason and instead have had both their 2 players that were left had been already on attack when the 2v2 started. Because this rarely ever happens there are barely ever any of your amazing 2v2 fights in the zone, rather there's almost always a 2v1 in blues advantage (Who in the scenario would be defending their zone) while the gold defender is stuck circling his unchallenged base until either his teammate dies and it becomes a 2v1 where blue is attacking gold (Basically a reverse of what was previously happening, but instead there is no one circling a unattacked base.) or vice versa.

[1200]

@Zman

1) Thanx for your answers. If you don't mind could you explain what you mean by the current reservoir and how that affects how deep you can get in a dig...

Does CYCLE_RUBBER_MINDISTANCE_RESERVIOR, allow a player who has used "no rubber" to dig much deeper than a player who has used "some rubber"? In another words can a player (i'm talking about the center attacker) who digs 4.9 just once beat a double grinder who also did 4.9 on the 180?

2) In the same scenario above, will the DGer outgrind the center attacker then because DGer also did a light grind going the opposite way before doing the 180? In other words are digs cumulative? If DGer does 1.0 then 4.0 on 180 will that beat a center attacker who did 4.9 or not?

3) Also is it possible that network error can cause fault in a way that some one who grinded less than you can get underneath your grind?


What i'm trying to get to the bottom is that how a center attacker can come down center when i've grinded 4.8? Are they really digging 4.9 or are there some other factors involved?

[1200]

Corn Wrote:

there are barely ever any of your amazing 2v2 fights in the zone

Not true 2vs2 in a zone can happen anytime from the beginning of the round, even if there are more than 4 players left on the grid. I guess its usually 3vs2 in the most situations where its 2vs2 in one zone and a lone defender in the other.

and yea 2vs2 is exciting and i'd miss it.[/quote]

[DDMJ]

As I said already, the offense has the advantage once they break in. That's all the incentive you need.

I disagree. Once the offense breaks in, it's still 2v1 since there's no reason the defender should attack to make it 2v2. Why? Because what if he attacks, but then his teammate dies. Then it's 2v1 with his base completely empty for the other team to capture. What if he doesn't attack, but his teammate kills one of their players? Sweet, he takes the 5 second drive over to the other base and captures the zone.

There really is no advantage once he's broken in. Whether he's broken in or not, it's still 2v1 against him.

[1200]

@Durka

I think Woned meant that the offense has an advantage when its 2vs2 in one zone. Why give the offense further advantage by making it 2vs2 conquerable?

And i've said this before as well but in your scenario the lone defender should be coming up to help the lone attacker.

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 3&start=30

/me wants to find out how to make a random word a link to a page.....

[sinewav]

Well, maybe we should continue to leave 2v2 unconq for now since it's kind of late to call a vote; plus this doesn't really other registered teams any say - just our small group of debaters with equally strong points. I "strongly feel" we should have a way for team captains to vote for settings on the wiki for each Ladle. If not that, maybe we can do it here for Ladle-21 in a similar fashion as Ladle-16?

Can we agree on this even?

[1200]

Can we agree on this even?

I hope so we've been trying to setup a way for the collective to decide things without much of response/progress.

[Corn1]

2) In the same scenario above, will the DGer outgrind the center attacker then because DGer also did a light grind going the opposite way before doing the 180? In other words are digs cumulative? If DGer does 1.0 then 4.0 on 180 will that beat a center attacker who did 4.9 or not?

What i'm trying to get to the bottom is that how a center attacker can come down center when i've grinded 4.8? Are they really digging 4.9 or are there some other factors involved?

Well when you double grind you have to keep in mind you arent actually grinding the amount of rubber that you gauge says. If you have 4.8 rubber used after you do the grind that could very possibly be just 4.2 or so rubber grind because you already had some rubber used from the first 180. If your rubber was replenished to zero immediately, your rubber used would be exactly the closeness of your grind, but rubber takes awhile to go completely back to zero.

[1200]

Well when you double grind you have to keep in mind you arent actually grinding the amount of rubber that you gauge says. If you have 4.8 rubber used after you do the grind that could very possibly be just 4.2 or so rubber grind because you already had some rubber used from the first 180. If your rubber was replenished to zero immediately, your rubber used would be exactly the closeness of your grind, but rubber takes awhile to go completely back to zero.

That is also the part i'm not sure about.
If a DGer does 1.0 then 4.0 (when the rubber meter is at 0.5) you are saying that essentially DGer is digging 1.0 and 3.5 (4.0 - 0.5).
Can that beat a center attacker's grind who did 4.5?

I wish i was more savvy with console commands you could probably test it for different grinding scenarios.
If anybody knows the answer or are good with console commands and wanna test it with me let me know...

[Z-Man]

2) In the same scenario above, will the DGer outgrind the center attacker then because DGer also did a light grind going the opposite way before doing the 180? In other words are digs cumulative? If DGer does 1.0 then 4.0 on 180 will that beat a center attacker who did 4.9 or not?

In default settings, grinds should be cumulative. The formula for your distance to the wall basically is
distance = a*e^(-effective_rubber_used_to_grind/a) + rubber_mindistance + rubber_mindistance_reservoir*rubber_left_after_grind
So if both players spend the same amount of rubber grinding the center's wall, they should end up roughly equal. However, there are ways to make the DGer grind deeper or less deep by way of tinkering with stuff. For example, the efficiency of rubber right after a turn can be tweaked (making the DGer burn more or less rubber for the same effective grind.) rubber_mindistance can also be modified, and in fact, there's a default setting that makes it 0.001 for a regular deep grind and 0.006 for the dger. The variable a in the equations is a function of the cycle's speed and rubber_speed (a=cycle_speed/rubber_speed, I think), at fortress about a=.75. That value makes the exponential bit of the distance, if you burn all your rubber, about 0.001. So the nearest you can come the wall with a dg or a late adjust is 0.007 units, while a single grinder can get as close as 0.002 units. There. Also, that difference makes it even possible for a well prepared 4.x grind to outgrind any dger. Mind you, though, at those small distances floating point accuracies start kicking in.

tl;dr: Theory says DGing is not suited to stop center attacks.

[1200]

@Zman
Perhaps settings may be tinkered with in the future but i am not really trying to go
there. I just wanted to understand the logic behind it a lil better.
But to completely understand it i would just need to clarify what a few things.

1)What is the variable/constant 'e' in your equation? And is the upward pointing arrow refer to "to the power of"?
2)What is effective_rubber_used_to_grind ? (in my DGer's example would these be 1 & 4?)
3)What is rubber_left_after_grind? (in my DGer's example would these be 4 & 1)
4)Are rubber_mindistance & rubber_mindistance_reservoir costants? I checked the cafe settings and they came back as 0.000999987
& 0.005 respectively.)
5)Quote "and in fact, there's a default setting that makes it 0.001 for a regular deep grind and 0.006 for the dger".
Sry if i didn't understand but what setting are you talking about?

I do have a few more questions but i don't want to drive you crazy so i'll stop here on this post...

[Z-Man]

1)What is the variable/constant 'e' in your equation? And is the upward pointing arrow refer to "to the power of"?

It's Euler's number. And yes. Instead of e^x you can also write exp(x).

2)What is effective_rubber_used_to_grind ? (in my DGer's example would these be 1 & 4?)

The total rubber used to grind on this particular wall without interruption. It's close to 5 in both cases. It can be a little more than 5 for the DGer because of the regeneration in between the two grinds. 'effective' is there because there's a modifier that can make the DGer's spent rubber worth more or less; but it's off by default.

3)What is rubber_left_after_grind? (in my DGer's example would these be 4 & 1)

total rubber - the value of the rubber gauge. Can be as low as the player dares to, independent of whether he DGs or not.

4)Are rubber_mindistance & rubber_mindistance_reservoir costants? I checked the cafe settings and they came back as 0.000999987
& 0.005 respectively.)

Constans in the sense of constant over time and independent of the player actions, yes. But they're variables like all other settings.

5)Quote "and in fact, there's a default setting that makes it 0.001 for a regular deep grind and 0.006 for the dger".
Sry if i didn't understand but what setting are you talking about?

CYCLE_RUBBER_MINDISTANCE_UNPREPARED. It's on .005 per default.