When I first started thinking about getting more involved with Arma, I thought I understood the philosophy behind the project, but Lucifer made me understand that I actually don't. I told him that I didn't want to talk openly about what I'm thinking about the community, and the reason is that I don't want to sound way off base with my ideas.
I don't want to come out with my ideas if they'll be met with condescending remarks from 1337 people in "the know" (ie. haven't you been playing for two years and don't you understand open source, GNU GPL, software development, random acronyms for software principles, etc.). Because, in reality the average gamer DOESN'T understand these things. The game has been extensively developed and managed by incredibly intelligent and talented people for years and years, but I don't think Arma is presented clearly and simply enough reflecting its evolution and current state.
Some small changes could be made to the forums, site, wiki, etc. to help anyone who comes in contact with Armagetron understand the basic philosophy, history, and the current events of the community.
We need to streamline, archive, simplify, and organize.
And yeah, people are busy, but that's why I think the process should be collaborative.
What do you guys think?
Armagetron Revitalization?
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apparition
- Match Winner
- Posts: 630
- Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:59 am
- Location: The Mitten, USA
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Tank Program
- Forum & Project Admin, PhD
- Posts: 6712
- Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:03 pm
I have to say that we're pretty average for most open source projects in terms of our communication. I also have to say that most people don't understand open source, but once you explain it, most people still don't see the intrinsic benefit.
Does everyone under the sun need to know exactly what we're doing that we need to communicate more? You just said people don't understand things we're talking about anyway. I don't know how to ask my questions about your post any better than this, I'm really confused. What's this about streamlining, archiving, simplifying and organizing?
One of the most difficult aspects of any project is communication. We do pretty well between each other, which is the important one. Without that nothing gets done. Are you saying we don't talk to the community enough?
Lucifer, what did you say to this guy about philosophy?
Does everyone under the sun need to know exactly what we're doing that we need to communicate more? You just said people don't understand things we're talking about anyway. I don't know how to ask my questions about your post any better than this, I'm really confused. What's this about streamlining, archiving, simplifying and organizing?
One of the most difficult aspects of any project is communication. We do pretty well between each other, which is the important one. Without that nothing gets done. Are you saying we don't talk to the community enough?
Lucifer, what did you say to this guy about philosophy?
Well, a symptom I sometimes observe is that people ask me whether the map/cockpit is going to be in 0.2.8.3, which probably means many people don't understand our stable/development branch structure. Dunno. Other things some people don't understand:
- that sometimes we need to work on stuff invisible to them instead of fixing obvious glaring problems (like sound and glancing in trunk versions)
- that it's HARD to find the right balance between giving players ways to express themselves freely and stopping players from smegging around (see chat and cycle trail colors)
Perhaps more prominent links to the FAQ from here and the main website (and actually answering those questions there) may help.
- that sometimes we need to work on stuff invisible to them instead of fixing obvious glaring problems (like sound and glancing in trunk versions)
- that it's HARD to find the right balance between giving players ways to express themselves freely and stopping players from smegging around (see chat and cycle trail colors)
Perhaps more prominent links to the FAQ from here and the main website (and actually answering those questions there) may help.
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apparition
- Match Winner
- Posts: 630
- Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:59 am
- Location: The Mitten, USA
First, to answer your question to Lucifer (which is not really a big deal): he basically said to me that any ideas and questions I have about the project need to be asked in the open. At the time we were in a private IRC chat and he told me that his philosophy of open source means that what information is communicated between people should be open, therefore he closed the private chat. I think we were both turned off by the exchange enough to not press the issue. This made me realize, however, that while I was trying to see if I could contact Z-Man as an individual, my questions and ideas shouldn't be directed toward an individual, but the community. Anyway, this complicated my approach to asking questions and made me question my understanding of the philosophy of the game development.
Overall, it's very apparent that the Arma community is proud of the progress it has made in development and enjoys being somewhat stealth from "everyone under the sun". But it is exactly the sentiment that you conveyed in your post that I'm questioning, Tank. The idea of "everyone under the sun" knowing about the progress and how it probably doesn't matter to them anyway because they probably just won't understand the game philosophy or care is a bit naive. But really, why aren't we trying harder? Don't you think people want a game like this... one that has people coming back years later and enjoying it just as much? I've gotten two close friends just as addicted to it as I have gotten over the past two and a half years, and even more people around me know about it because we play that much.
It is this sentiment, this attitude, and this closed off community that I want to understand more. Is it really as intentional as Tank subtly hints at?
The Arma veterans have been in it so long, and are so elite that they seem offended when someone doesn't understand something. Believe me, I know, because every time I come out with questions I can just tell that the developers just see me as a little annoying peon that you want to brush off. Perfect example: "what did you say to this guy"... This guy, meaning in a covert way, outsider. It's this biting reluctance to explain the game/community philosophy to new users, as well as a reluctance to accept new members into the community that I'm questioning. Open up! It would make it more user-friendly, more of an open community, and generally a better organized game.
All of us who play fortress or Arma teamplay know this "noobism" when a person doesn't grind (Corn just had a post on Play Fortress talking about it), and we are struggling how to combat the situation by using /vote suspend or instant chats that are meant to teach users how to play. Let's creatively and cooperatively take on the challenge of eliminating this problem (/vote kick to training server?!). But overall, I'm just as guilty as anyone who gets annoyed with non-grinders and just wants to kick them out.
It's kind of like we have a sense of pride that we know everything about the game. And how does one assimilate into the community? Unless someone actively seeking to understand the game takes the necessary time to sift through all the bullshit on the forums or the outdated information on the site/wiki to really learn the ins and outs of the game, people just get annoyed with them and write them off as some guy. In reality, that rando dude might have ideas about the game that could potentially make it even better!
While this is true for many games, I think I speak for so many users when I say that Armagetron may be "pretty average" in terms of communication, but in terms of an online game with an open community, Arma seems to just barely live up to its philosophy and that's why it doesn't grow as fast as it should. This game is ******* amazing and should be way more than it is.
My questions to Z-Man (before being deflected by various users) were:
Where is Armagetron going?
What are the goals of the project?
Could Armagetron ever somehow make money for individuals (2020 touched on this on Play Fortress)?
How big do you want the game to get? How big can it get?
What kind of recognition does Armagetron deserve from the general public, if any recognition at all?
When will Arma evolve from an "open source project" into a completed online game?
And to finally expand on my last question a little more... I believe that even while the project struggles to just stay alive and kicking, it should become more than just a developing project. So many old tronners come onto the grid and ask if Armagetron is dead. Communication average? Nope. We shouldn't just be happy with a disorganized community of elite members, friendly gamers, and hesitant new users. Let's get rid of this "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"-act that the elite members and developers have going on that may distance new users from falling in love with the game.
Overall, my aim is to create a more open and new user friendly community.
Concrete examples:
Community growth: I would be very willing to start a web/street marketing team (ArmaCorps!) that would help unify the project by setting and attempting to reach concrete goals such as number of new registered users, encourage active servers, updated information, and, yes, more communication with the community! One of the aspects of this that I'm most interested in is extending my personal work in marketing and publicity to Armagetron and help with fundraising efforts (see the Arma shirt thread). Fundraising could mean a lot to the community, which would mean more incentive for developers to do their thing, and would even get more people involved with the game.
Web site: it's stagnant, so let's revitalize it to be more inviting, informational, functional, full of live, and dynamic: game guide, donate button, updated info, updated layout, schedule, merch, separate developers' section, more user-friendly download section, IRC right on the site with different channels, member profiles, etc. Sure, hosting is a pain, but that's even more of a reason to expand and grow, so that we can bring in more funding through donations (the past week is proof that it's possible). As a final note, to truly understand what could be improved, we can model some of the features used on clan sites (who are generally more on top of the day to day gaming aspect of Arma).
Forum: I've said this before, and no offense, but the forum looks like barf with lots of old bits of forgotten food. I've been part of forums that have archived information before, why not work on combining information, purging the old, irrelevant, and unnecessary? And while Tank insists that there are certain threads here for nostalgic and historical purposes, which I understand, I think it'd be more beneficial to archive some and delete others. Please don't expect every new user (especially ones who don't speak English) to sift through all the BS before they ask questions, give feedback, or just post in general. Even after two and a half years of visiting the forum, I'm still daunted by its clutter.
Development Teams: Open that curtain that developers are standing behind. I mean to step on no toes here, but I am perplexed by the organization of the developers. Why don't we work on establishing/unveiling/remodeling the way the details of Arma are being worked on? Improvements to the development could include organizing development into stages and divided into teams: version and system control team, graphics team, testing team, technical writing team, reviewing team, packaging and releasing team, bug tracking team, usability team. This is already established in so many ways, but it might be beneficial to overall project progress if we have team leaders and a list of team members. This can also empower new people and lighten the load on some older developers (delegate!). Are we not capable of this?
Feedback from users: Create a game feedback form: Tron name, real name (optional), feedback category/classification (in-game design, game feature, audio, server, other, etc.).
Feedback from developers! What are the developers working on anyway?: Yeah, I could definitely try to read through the complex language in the forums, but it's not exactly easy and takes a long time to google simple things and understand how they fit into the development of the game. I've tried it. New users beware of the development threads. So, why not have a section of the web site AND forum devoted to simplifying the language of recent and upcoming additions/improvements/deletions that are being worked on?! I want to know!!! This can also help the developers avoid having to answer pesky messages/threads about updates that are already completed but not packaged, or ideas that are new and useful.
Game navigation design: those of us who play regularly all know the divisions of the game (hr, sumo, ctf, racing, fort, etc.), so why not embrace it? Organize the server list in a similar way to how xbox live used to be... with different menus and options. For example, scroll horizontally through different server types: Sumo! (below that have a list of sumo servers) click the right or left arrow and you get a new screen that says Fortress! (list fort servers) --> TRAINING! (wouldn't this be awesome for new users?)
In-game menu: It's complicated <period> It may not seem complicated to those of us who have been playing for years, but organizing this information in a user-friendly way could help out so much! My two tronning roommates who have been playing for a year still ask me where to find how to do certain things. Game Controls, Chat Controls, Camera Controls, Display Options. Can't we consolidate the global keyboard configuration into the rest of the game controls instead of leaving it in Misc Stuff? I don't know about you guys, but I've never touched Player 2, 3, and god forbid Player 4 Settings...
Before I go to sleep for a few hours before work I want to apologize for any toes I've stepped on, redundant points I made, useless feedback, and disorganized explanations I have written. It's been a long day and even though my heart is truly in this post, I may sound like an idiot sometimes, but you know what? I don't really care if I sound stupid
Overall, it's very apparent that the Arma community is proud of the progress it has made in development and enjoys being somewhat stealth from "everyone under the sun". But it is exactly the sentiment that you conveyed in your post that I'm questioning, Tank. The idea of "everyone under the sun" knowing about the progress and how it probably doesn't matter to them anyway because they probably just won't understand the game philosophy or care is a bit naive. But really, why aren't we trying harder? Don't you think people want a game like this... one that has people coming back years later and enjoying it just as much? I've gotten two close friends just as addicted to it as I have gotten over the past two and a half years, and even more people around me know about it because we play that much.
It is this sentiment, this attitude, and this closed off community that I want to understand more. Is it really as intentional as Tank subtly hints at?
The Arma veterans have been in it so long, and are so elite that they seem offended when someone doesn't understand something. Believe me, I know, because every time I come out with questions I can just tell that the developers just see me as a little annoying peon that you want to brush off. Perfect example: "what did you say to this guy"... This guy, meaning in a covert way, outsider. It's this biting reluctance to explain the game/community philosophy to new users, as well as a reluctance to accept new members into the community that I'm questioning. Open up! It would make it more user-friendly, more of an open community, and generally a better organized game.
All of us who play fortress or Arma teamplay know this "noobism" when a person doesn't grind (Corn just had a post on Play Fortress talking about it), and we are struggling how to combat the situation by using /vote suspend or instant chats that are meant to teach users how to play. Let's creatively and cooperatively take on the challenge of eliminating this problem (/vote kick to training server?!). But overall, I'm just as guilty as anyone who gets annoyed with non-grinders and just wants to kick them out.
It's kind of like we have a sense of pride that we know everything about the game. And how does one assimilate into the community? Unless someone actively seeking to understand the game takes the necessary time to sift through all the bullshit on the forums or the outdated information on the site/wiki to really learn the ins and outs of the game, people just get annoyed with them and write them off as some guy. In reality, that rando dude might have ideas about the game that could potentially make it even better!
While this is true for many games, I think I speak for so many users when I say that Armagetron may be "pretty average" in terms of communication, but in terms of an online game with an open community, Arma seems to just barely live up to its philosophy and that's why it doesn't grow as fast as it should. This game is ******* amazing and should be way more than it is.
My questions to Z-Man (before being deflected by various users) were:
Where is Armagetron going?
What are the goals of the project?
Could Armagetron ever somehow make money for individuals (2020 touched on this on Play Fortress)?
How big do you want the game to get? How big can it get?
What kind of recognition does Armagetron deserve from the general public, if any recognition at all?
When will Arma evolve from an "open source project" into a completed online game?
And to finally expand on my last question a little more... I believe that even while the project struggles to just stay alive and kicking, it should become more than just a developing project. So many old tronners come onto the grid and ask if Armagetron is dead. Communication average? Nope. We shouldn't just be happy with a disorganized community of elite members, friendly gamers, and hesitant new users. Let's get rid of this "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"-act that the elite members and developers have going on that may distance new users from falling in love with the game.
Overall, my aim is to create a more open and new user friendly community.
Concrete examples:
Community growth: I would be very willing to start a web/street marketing team (ArmaCorps!) that would help unify the project by setting and attempting to reach concrete goals such as number of new registered users, encourage active servers, updated information, and, yes, more communication with the community! One of the aspects of this that I'm most interested in is extending my personal work in marketing and publicity to Armagetron and help with fundraising efforts (see the Arma shirt thread). Fundraising could mean a lot to the community, which would mean more incentive for developers to do their thing, and would even get more people involved with the game.
Web site: it's stagnant, so let's revitalize it to be more inviting, informational, functional, full of live, and dynamic: game guide, donate button, updated info, updated layout, schedule, merch, separate developers' section, more user-friendly download section, IRC right on the site with different channels, member profiles, etc. Sure, hosting is a pain, but that's even more of a reason to expand and grow, so that we can bring in more funding through donations (the past week is proof that it's possible). As a final note, to truly understand what could be improved, we can model some of the features used on clan sites (who are generally more on top of the day to day gaming aspect of Arma).
Forum: I've said this before, and no offense, but the forum looks like barf with lots of old bits of forgotten food. I've been part of forums that have archived information before, why not work on combining information, purging the old, irrelevant, and unnecessary? And while Tank insists that there are certain threads here for nostalgic and historical purposes, which I understand, I think it'd be more beneficial to archive some and delete others. Please don't expect every new user (especially ones who don't speak English) to sift through all the BS before they ask questions, give feedback, or just post in general. Even after two and a half years of visiting the forum, I'm still daunted by its clutter.
Development Teams: Open that curtain that developers are standing behind. I mean to step on no toes here, but I am perplexed by the organization of the developers. Why don't we work on establishing/unveiling/remodeling the way the details of Arma are being worked on? Improvements to the development could include organizing development into stages and divided into teams: version and system control team, graphics team, testing team, technical writing team, reviewing team, packaging and releasing team, bug tracking team, usability team. This is already established in so many ways, but it might be beneficial to overall project progress if we have team leaders and a list of team members. This can also empower new people and lighten the load on some older developers (delegate!). Are we not capable of this?
Feedback from users: Create a game feedback form: Tron name, real name (optional), feedback category/classification (in-game design, game feature, audio, server, other, etc.).
Feedback from developers! What are the developers working on anyway?: Yeah, I could definitely try to read through the complex language in the forums, but it's not exactly easy and takes a long time to google simple things and understand how they fit into the development of the game. I've tried it. New users beware of the development threads. So, why not have a section of the web site AND forum devoted to simplifying the language of recent and upcoming additions/improvements/deletions that are being worked on?! I want to know!!! This can also help the developers avoid having to answer pesky messages/threads about updates that are already completed but not packaged, or ideas that are new and useful.
Game navigation design: those of us who play regularly all know the divisions of the game (hr, sumo, ctf, racing, fort, etc.), so why not embrace it? Organize the server list in a similar way to how xbox live used to be... with different menus and options. For example, scroll horizontally through different server types: Sumo! (below that have a list of sumo servers) click the right or left arrow and you get a new screen that says Fortress! (list fort servers) --> TRAINING! (wouldn't this be awesome for new users?)
In-game menu: It's complicated <period> It may not seem complicated to those of us who have been playing for years, but organizing this information in a user-friendly way could help out so much! My two tronning roommates who have been playing for a year still ask me where to find how to do certain things. Game Controls, Chat Controls, Camera Controls, Display Options. Can't we consolidate the global keyboard configuration into the rest of the game controls instead of leaving it in Misc Stuff? I don't know about you guys, but I've never touched Player 2, 3, and god forbid Player 4 Settings...
Before I go to sleep for a few hours before work I want to apologize for any toes I've stepped on, redundant points I made, useless feedback, and disorganized explanations I have written. It's been a long day and even though my heart is truly in this post, I may sound like an idiot sometimes, but you know what? I don't really care if I sound stupid
Well, I'm falling asleep at the wheel, so I didn't read all of apparition's last post yet, sorry.
About philosophy, that's a very open-ended subject. We don't really have one single philosophy, we have different ideas for every person on the team and within the community at large.
There isn't any significant team organization, either. Z-man has been the de facto release manager for the stable series, and I've been the de facto release manager for the development series, but neither of these roles are set in stone. And that's really as close to organization as we get...
...because at the end of the day, it's a volunteer effort, and you can only expect people to give what they're willing and able to give. Which is why you don't see us pimping new features and stuff. They're just not getting implemented quickly. Believe me, when someone does something, we go all hog-wild with screenshots and stuff.
Anyway, keep this thread active and I'll write a book in here tomorrow.
About philosophy, that's a very open-ended subject. We don't really have one single philosophy, we have different ideas for every person on the team and within the community at large.
There isn't any significant team organization, either. Z-man has been the de facto release manager for the stable series, and I've been the de facto release manager for the development series, but neither of these roles are set in stone. And that's really as close to organization as we get...
...because at the end of the day, it's a volunteer effort, and you can only expect people to give what they're willing and able to give. Which is why you don't see us pimping new features and stuff. They're just not getting implemented quickly. Believe me, when someone does something, we go all hog-wild with screenshots and stuff.
Anyway, keep this thread active and I'll write a book in here tomorrow.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/@davefancella?si=H--oCK3k_dQ1laDN
Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
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2020
- Outside Corner Grinder
- Posts: 1322
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:21 pm
- Location: the present, finally
@appa: ++
that's one hell of a post
hehehhe
like written on stone
hehehhe
happy to help if i can
though my skills are nowhere near computers and development of that order
if zman is going to answer those questions
could he do it in a way that could translate onto video...?
in fact
i would like all three main developers
as well as all the others who have contributed major sections
or even just a single patch somewhere
to answer those questions (amoungst others)...
it would be sincerely interesting if they were answered unilaterally
as it were
rather than as a response to one another...
could make for better tv
that's one hell of a post
hehehhe
like written on stone
hehehhe
happy to help if i can
though my skills are nowhere near computers and development of that order
if zman is going to answer those questions
could he do it in a way that could translate onto video...?
in fact
i would like all three main developers
as well as all the others who have contributed major sections
or even just a single patch somewhere
to answer those questions (amoungst others)...
it would be sincerely interesting if they were answered unilaterally
as it were
rather than as a response to one another...
could make for better tv
hold the line
There are only very few things we developers only discuss privately. Security relevant bugs and accepting new team members are basically the only things. Many questions can be answered correctly by just about anyone on IRC.apparition wrote:First, to answer your question to Lucifer (which is not really a big deal): he basically said to me that any ideas and questions I have about the project need to be asked in the open. At the time we were in a private IRC chat and he told me that his philosophy of open source means that what information is communicated between people should be open, therefore he closed the private chat. I think we were both turned off by the exchange enough to not press the issue. This made me realize, however, that while I was trying to see if I could contact Z-Man as an individual, my questions and ideas shouldn't be directed toward an individual, but the community. Anyway, this complicated my approach to asking questions and made me question my understanding of the philosophy of the game development.
Dunno. I'm still busy fixing past mistakes to actually make it reasonably possible to add new stuff to the game itself without breaking tons of stuff.apparition wrote:Where is Armagetron going?
To be the best possible multiplayer lightcycle game. If that means adding ramps and flying cycles and lasers, so be it. But it probably doesn't.apparition wrote:What are the goals of the project?
Well, I think luke is making profit with his hosting service. Not much, of course. There is the theoretical possibility to build versions for closed platforms and publish them with the consent of all developers. But realistically, my answer has to be 'No'.apparition wrote:Could Armagetron ever somehow make money for individuals (2020 touched on this on Play Fortress)?
I don't think about that at the moment. It is big enough to motivate me to continue with development, big enough to get bugs reported. Same for the development team size. As said, I'm still busy fixing old mistakes that make development in certain areas hard.apparition wrote:How big do you want the game to get? How big can it get?
The general public, as in the man on the street? None.It's just a video game.It isn't trying to change the world.apparition wrote:What kind of recognition does Armagetron deserve from the general public, if any recognition at all?
To paraphrase good old Leonardo, "Games are never completed, only abandoned."apparition wrote:When will Arma evolve from an "open source project" into a completed online game?
Sure, knock yourself outapparition wrote:Community growth: I would be very willing to start a web/street marketing team (ArmaCorps!)
Just because I'm not eager to do community work doesn't mean nobody else can.Umm, that's how forums usually work. And we don't ask anyone to actually read everything. We have a quite working search feature, and in those cases where it fails, we don't bash new users for asking old questions. I agree some old stuff could be moved to a nostalgia section (like subforums for long vanished servers).apparition wrote:Forum
We already write about what we're doing on the development subforum. Well, I do. Some others prefer adding blueprints on launchpad (which I personally don't like as an all purpose solution, because you can't easily discuss on them). We have no fixed roles. There is no release team, every release has a manager. Which is the one starting the corresponding release management thread on the development subforum.apparition wrote:Development Teams
We have this 'general' section here.apparition wrote:Feedback from users
The following has to be said with a preamble: The ideas that do make it on the forums these days are usually pretty good. If you posted an idea here in the past, don't be offended, it doesn't apply to you. Ok, with that warning: If you make submitting game ideas too easy, you get tons of drivel. crap. bullshit. The simple fact is that most ideas people come up with are simply not worth getting implemented in a million years. Just look at our abandoned SF feature request tracker. Most anonymous submissions are either useless or way too hard to implement. So I regard a little entry barrier for feature requests a good thing.
I'd agree, but the problem there is that as far as the game is concerned, the things you list aren't game modes, so automatic filtering is not possible. A solution could be to allow server admins to select the game mode themselves as a free text field. But we all know that's going to get abused. Suggestions how to prevent that are very much welcome. Another problem is the inflexible menu system that makes extension of the server browser extremely hard.apparition wrote:[Game navigation design
Agreed, and a rewrite is on our long lists of things to do. The problem as you see it comes from the fact that the menu is code driven, and that implies that functions that are close in code are close in the menus. And in the code, player options and player keyboard configuration are close together, but far away from the global keyboard configuration. We'd need to make it so that the code only registers menu hooks and some menu script puts them together to actual menus. That does require a lot of work.apparition wrote:[In-game menu: It's complicated <period>
Stuff I haven't replied to: well, your own fault for putting so many different topics into one thread
Some of the things, like the main site revamping suggestions, do warrant separate threads.-
Luke-Jr
- Dr Z Level
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:03 pm
- Location: IM: luke@dashjr.org
With regard to private questions being in the open, I personally feel this is a matter of time being expensive. When people are volunteering their time, they want it to be well spent. Helping people privately is not spending time wisely. It is far better to help out in the public where *other people* can *also* benefit from the help. With regard to ideas, the more input the better.
As far as improving the website or other stuff, I think this again comes back to time. Do you want us spending time on the website or making the game better? IMO, more *non-programmers* need to get involved and help improve the website and do things that save us programmers time that we can put toward coding. In my case, one example is maintenance of the resource repository. I regularly get emails and PMs from people asking how to get an account. This annoys me to no end, since the process is not only documented, but very simple. Lately I have taken to simply ignoring such contacts. If a community member would take over this process (it's fairly simple), it would free up the time I spend on it so I can then spend a few more minutes each week coding.
As far as UI improvements, there's no reason programmers should be expected to redesign things either. Keep in mind we (well, at least z-man) designed the existing interface and probably like it. If someone thinks they can do better, they should (possibly as part of a team) come up with a new design and present a nice proposal for the programmers to implement.
As far as improving the website or other stuff, I think this again comes back to time. Do you want us spending time on the website or making the game better? IMO, more *non-programmers* need to get involved and help improve the website and do things that save us programmers time that we can put toward coding. In my case, one example is maintenance of the resource repository. I regularly get emails and PMs from people asking how to get an account. This annoys me to no end, since the process is not only documented, but very simple. Lately I have taken to simply ignoring such contacts. If a community member would take over this process (it's fairly simple), it would free up the time I spend on it so I can then spend a few more minutes each week coding.
As far as UI improvements, there's no reason programmers should be expected to redesign things either. Keep in mind we (well, at least z-man) designed the existing interface and probably like it. If someone thinks they can do better, they should (possibly as part of a team) come up with a new design and present a nice proposal for the programmers to implement.
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Tank Program
- Forum & Project Admin, PhD
- Posts: 6712
- Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:03 pm
"This guy." that was truly unintentional. What I was actually thinking was "this poor guy." To my reading, your post sounded confused, but I didn't want to say that. A bad choice of words on my part.
To be bluntly honest what lucifer says about this being a volunteer project is true. I'm finding myself really lazy in regard to Armagetron since I started university. I'm also naturally tight-lipped. I don't talk to a lot of people.
If it's any consolation, I've never seen a very active website for an open source project of our size. I update it on release, but since we only release once every year or two, I don't do a lot.
A lot of what you say sounds proper- it's what I'd expect from a handout in the management I had last semester. Good communication is essential to the success of any project. We are not doing to well in that department.
The place to start is probably the main site. I'll think about that some. Ideas are welcome.
To be bluntly honest what lucifer says about this being a volunteer project is true. I'm finding myself really lazy in regard to Armagetron since I started university. I'm also naturally tight-lipped. I don't talk to a lot of people.
If it's any consolation, I've never seen a very active website for an open source project of our size. I update it on release, but since we only release once every year or two, I don't do a lot.
A lot of what you say sounds proper- it's what I'd expect from a handout in the management I had last semester. Good communication is essential to the success of any project. We are not doing to well in that department.
The place to start is probably the main site. I'll think about that some. Ideas are welcome.
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Luke-Jr
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This could be awesome, but probably not suited for the main website-- perhaps a blog section under aabeta. If we can get Windows nightlies going again, that would complement it very well, so people could actually test the new stuff. You would probably need to read the IRC logs, and probably log in a bit to clarify what was meant. The only possible catch-22 I can see is what happens on those weeks that there is no progress whatsoeverConcord wrote:I'd be willing, but probably not the best person for this, to write a weekly summary of the development progress. What was undertaken in that week, what was abandoned, what was finished, what progressed, what was proposed.
I've never done anything like that before, but I just read about htpasswd files and it looks like something I could handle with just a few minutes of training. I'm a pretty quick learner. It's up to you if you want to invest a little time to save more time later.Luke-Jr wrote:...maintenance of the resource repository....If a community member would take over this process (it's fairly simple), it would free up the time I spend on it so I can then spend a few more minutes each week coding.
I'm on board with this idea. I guess I fall into the group who want to share my joy of Arma with the world. But it seems to me that almost none of what apparition said need be in conflict with the existing structure of the project. There is no reason we couldn't make a separate site that addresses some of the issues appa brought up. It could have a FAQ, tutorial pages, development blog, videos, feedback form, or whatever; and it could look "streamlined" (whatever that means, I'm not entirely sure, but I think it means dumbed-down for noobs)apparition wrote: I would be very willing to start a web/street marketing team (ArmaCorps!)...
Maybe it's time for some of us to bridge the gap between the development world and the noob world. We could act a liaisons in a way. I don't know anything about programming, but I can usually get a good feel for project development just by eavesdropping #armagetron. Exciting stuff happens everyday.
I know others have done this before, but I don't think any of them had a development or growth plan using project management principals, and I think this is something apparition is hinting at.