Ladle 17

kyle · Post by **kyle** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:03 am

I don't get why we should seed when we have not in the past, why was this not brought up going from ladle 8 to 9, oops got the bye for some reason.
going from ladle 2 to 3, 2 teams got bye's. In the past we did not have trouble, first come first pick. then durka and a few others presented randomizing slots, which is a good idea. I don't see why that can only work on 2,4,8,16.......256 team matches. You have 10 teams and 10 slots put 1 in each slot randomly picked, that is the fairest way. if you are really worried about 4 matches in 1 day maybe do the first round Saturday.

another thing you can do is have 5 first round matches of 10 rounds (no first to 100 for this one) the best 8 scores more on to the Quarter Finals. for this make team 1 the highest points to the lowest. pair up teams 1/8, 3/6, 2/7, 4/5. and teams 1/8/3/6 and 2/7/4/5 play for semi finals.

I just don't think it is fair to base past records on who gets the bye's and who doesn't

DDMJ · Post by **DDMJ** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:22 am

kyle wrote:I don't get why we should seed when we have not in the past, why was this not brought up going from ladle 8 to 9, oops got the bye for some reason.
going from ladle 2 to 3, 2 teams got bye's.

The way it worked before was teams got to sign up for slot #s and if no one else signed up to play against them, they got a bye.

On another note, shouldn't WW Fort be the server for the semi-finals? Doesn't that make sense?

Concord · Post by **Concord** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:23 am

just randomize it, it's the fair thing to do

1200 · Post by **1200** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:47 am

DDMJ wroted:

On another note, shouldn't WW Fort be the server for the semi-finals? Doesn't that make sense?

I was gonna say the same thing. Perhaps more than randomizing slots, having equal number of US servers would be making it fair for everyone.
We actually been saying it all along but seems like nothing's been done about it. There should be another US server in the quarter finals and WW should be in one of the semi finals.
And if i had it my way the server of the final would be a coin toss unless both finalist teams have the same Euro/US majority. Or alternate the finals server from Ladle to Ladle.

hoop · Post by **hoop** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:14 am

Seeding increases the probability to make another ladle like the previous: is that what we want?
Without seeding it may happen that will have to fight at the first round: anything wrong with it? Whether the first is stronger, it will beat the second in any case, being it the quarter or the final.
That's what I'd call fair...
Also I've often heared saying "oh no, it's going to be another ct vs x final..." or things like that, so seeding is a way to avoid things to change

In sum, the result of these posts looks like we could just set the spots as it was a 16 teams tournament, leaving 6 spots empty, and placing 10 randomly.
2 of them will have to play one match more: honestly, I'd love to be in one of those

This is what I mean by "choosing spots randomly", just an example of course

Code: Select all

spot | team

   1 |  3  \
   2 |     / \
   3 |  7  \ / \
   4 |  1  /    \
   5 |  2  \    / \
   6 |     / \ /   \
   7 |  5  \ /      \
   8 |  9  /         \
   9 |     \         /
  10 |  4  / \      /
  11 |     \ / \   /
  12 | 10  /    \ /
  13 |     \    /
  14 |  6  / \ /
  15 |  8  \ /
  16 |     /

Goodygumdrops · Post by **Goodygumdrops** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:27 am

As for comparisons to prominent organized sports, a great analogy would be what is now done in the NCAA bball tournament. They used to have 64 teams...no problems. In recent years, they have had 65 teams, so two teams have to play a "play-in" game, then the tournament runs as normal. You could think of our first round as the "play-in" round.

As for how to choose who plays those extra games, it would be nice to use the previous ladle results as much as possible. At least any team that made the semi-finals in the last ladle should automatically get through. Other than that, I don't see why randomly choosing who plays is a bad thing.

DDMJ · Post by **DDMJ** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:08 am

hoop wrote:Without seeding it may happen that will have to fight at the first round: anything wrong with it? Whether the first is stronger, it will beat the second in any case, being it the quarter or the final.

So basically, will beat everyone, so why even play the Ladle?

Post by **epsy** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:30 am

Here's my really honest opinion:

Draw it or DIE!

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:44 pm

I'm with Goody on this one, which is exactly the way we have been saying all along with Lack's suggestion. We need a system that works no matter how many teams we have in. Surely the excess teams must play in an extra round. Seeding should have NOTHING to do with not having exactly 8/16/32/etc teams. You seed the first however many people that should be seeded and you randomise the rest. How can so many people here not see that?

Durka, my parallel is an excellent parallel.

I still don't even care whether we seed or not.

Lackadaisical · Post by **Lackadaisical** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:56 pm

Even if there's going to be no seeding, I'm still for having teams distributed the way i showed, because you will make sure teams are always distributed evenly on the challenge board. ie you won't get something like this:

Code: Select all

spot | team

   1 |  3  \
   2 |  8 / \
   3 |  7  \ / \
   4 |  1  /    \
   5 |  2  \    / \
   6 |  6 / \ /   \
   7 |  5  \ /      \
   8 |  9  /         \
   9 |     \         /
  10 |  4  / \      /
  11 |     \ / \   /
  12 | 10  /    \ /
  13 |     \    /
  14 |     / \ /
  15 |     \ /
  16 |     /

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:12 pm

Lack: yep

hoop · Post by **hoop** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:45 pm

DDMJ wrote:
hoop wrote:Without seeding it may happen that will have to fight at the first round: anything wrong with it? Whether the first is stronger, it will beat the second in any case, being it the quarter or the final.
So basically, will beat everyone, so why even play the Ladle?

Man, you don't see my point! aren't you just sceptic?

what I mean is that -eg- a CT vs X match in the first round would not be a bad thing, imo

Lackadaisical wrote:Even if there's going to be no seeding, I'm still for having teams distributed the way i showed, because you will make sure teams are always distributed evenly on the challenge board. ie you won't get something like this:

You're right: in fact in my example each pair (1-2, 3-4, etc) contains at least 1 team, this way you avoid the case you posted

owned · Post by **owned** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:01 pm

hoop, the thing is, the final is supposed to be between the top 2 teams and the semis are supposed to have the top 4.

So the best way to do this is by seeding.

(top 4 is the best)

hoop · Post by **hoop** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:06 pm

that's exactly what I'm saying, by seeding there will never be a non-top team in final: it's not fair

Hoax · Post by **Hoax** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:19 pm

Monkey wrote:Then take the world cup (football/soccer) as another example. There is no seeding at all.

Wrong, there is.

owned wrote:hoop, the thing is, the final is supposed to be between the top 2 teams and the semis are supposed to have the top 4.

So the best way to do this is by seeding.

(top 4 is the best)

You only think that because of seeding..else any of the 'top' teams could meet eachother before the final stages.

Take the FA Cup from last year...shit teams made it to the semi finals & everyone was saying how good it was for the competition..yet also there were people saying how it was boring since they didn't get to watch the top teams play; armagetron isn't a spectator sport so maybe we shouldn't have seeding since no one cares about watching the 'top' teams play.

If we can't agree just randomise it all..playing an extra round shouldn't be much of a big deal; hopefully everyone who has to will be able to show up earlier. However it would seem stupid if two teams consisting of mainly european players were drawn to play on an american server or two teams of american players playing on a european server...maybe the servers should be chosen at random too & teams just accept it
But then..what's the point of a tourney if it's all based on luck of a server
Idk..maybe someone should call 2020 :D