Fortress tie breaking

What do you want to see in Armagetron soon? Any new feature ideas? Let's ponder these ground breaking ideas...
User avatar
Z-Man
God & Project Admin
Posts: 11710
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Cologne
Contact:

Post by Z-Man »

Rain wrote:both, defender and attacker are interested to win the round and not get the tie. both teams are interested to win as soon as possible.
Ideally, yes, but the attacker that estimates his attack success probability at 20% is interested in a tie. A tie does not change the point difference between the teams, an unsuccessful attack will change the score difference in favor of the other team as much as a successful attack changes it in favor of his team, and at 20% success rate, that's a net loss over a tie. The decrease in winning score does not change this at all.

2020: if it is 1 vs 1 and I'm the attacker and I know that sooner or later, a deathzone will emerge inside the zone, I'll do this lame thing: I'll circle the defender and won't let him out. If he makes a strange move before the deathzone appears, I'll go for the fortress. The suggestion does the job of giving the attacker an advantage, though.

My attack bonus suggestion (it's a bit different from the right of way, like Lucifer writes, the difference in the game being that in Fortress attack and defense happen simultaneously at different places by different people) has a flaw, too: it discourages the defender from killing the attacker. It will always be in the interest of the defender to stall the game.

I had a couple of more ideas that are again modifications of the game physics rules. The first one starts with this: make matches time limited. Then, the team that is behind in points has no interest in stalling a round. Making an early attack with 30% success rate will be better for them than waiting a minute for an attack chance with 40% success rate. We'd just need to make sure that the attacking team always is the one that is behind in points; we could let a fortress zone collapse harmlessly if its owning team is behind in points, has only one player left and the zone hasn't been touched by an enemy in a short while (so in case the currently attacking team is ahead in points, they have a reason to touch the enemy zone often).

Alternatively, we could drop the score comparison. Just collapse any zone owned by a team that is down to one player (it should have been started with more players) that hasn't been touched by an enemy recently, but has been defended. Result: if the attack force doesn't really attack, the object of the attack will vanish and the attacker and defender roles will be swapped, hopefully with a quicker resolution.

Last one for today: respawns. If a zone hasn't been touched by the enemy, it slowly generates respawn tickets for its team. They can be used by players saying "/spawn". This would make it essential to keep the enemy fortress under attack to make the other team run out of respawns, and a 1 vs 1 fight simply wouldn't stay 1 vs 1 for long.
User avatar
Rain
Round Winner
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: a random empty server playing with bots

Post by Rain »

it sounds to me so far from fortress
Attachments
screenshot_168.rar
/me agrees
(4.62 KiB) Downloaded 277 times
User avatar
Z-Man
God & Project Admin
Posts: 11710
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Cologne
Contact:

Post by Z-Man »

You couldn't have posted that in a more inconvenient way? For those who don't want to unrar the attachment, Manta says in there that "the long fights are my favorite part of fortress, not sure why people are wanting to get rid of them".

To me, it's simple: a 1 vs 1 endgame in a team game has most players degraded to spectators. If I want to have and see lots of 1 vs 1 fights, I play sumo.
User avatar
wrtlprnft
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1679
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:42 am
Location: 0x08048000
Contact:

Post by wrtlprnft »

Actually I agree with rain. If there's some actual fighting going on, with people switching their “owned area” in the zone all the time and a generally dynamic fight, it's worth watching. Which is why the winzone isn't such a bad idea: two good players involved in a good fight won't use it :)
There's no place like ::1
User avatar
Rain
Round Winner
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: a random empty server playing with bots

Post by Rain »

sorry about the screen shot, heh

z-man: for players that watch a 1 on 1, it depends on how the fight is doing. the fight could be nice or boring, and you cannot control it. you can decide if all those fights have to succeed or not, and this is easy: when in the game there are 2 players from different teams, the game ends in a tie.
another thing is to avoid that attackers wait defender to kill himself without any risk. about this i have to say i saw only newbies doing it, and maybe without any intention but just fear.
otherwise if the problem is you don't want to wait for next round. you just respawn players in the middle of the grid touching own zone, the round has a limited time and if no team got the zone it is tie.
but
imho, just adding the "time" element (and "tie" element in this way) you'll change players behaviour and probably solve your problem.
lets try it.
User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer
Posts: 8742
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas

Post by Lucifer »

Right, the fundamental problem isn't the long fights, it's the stalemate, either because the weak attacker can't crack the strong defense (and never will), or two players who just won't commit themselves and keep going around indecisively.

The only problem I see with respawns is where people spawn....

How about these:

* Players respawn regularly (outside their zone!) anyway, say every 20 seconds, a player is respawned, if someone's dead. Then it will never stay 1 v 1. This would also help cool tempers over bad breaks.
* When 1 v 1 is detected, both zones are collapsed and two arena-sized shrinking sumo zones appear. Problem is solved, you now have to sumo, and it's the really nice sumoing that people like. Of course, this also changes it from fortress to sumo, which are different games.... ;)

Maybe a death zone poll would be better. Let the people watching make the call. :)
Check out my YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/@davefancella?si=H--oCK3k_dQ1laDN

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
User avatar
Rain
Round Winner
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: a random empty server playing with bots

Post by Rain »

Lucifer wrote:* Players respawn regularly (outside their zone!) anyway, say every 20 seconds, a player is respawned, if someone's dead. Then it will never stay 1 v 1. This would also help cool tempers over bad breaks.
* When 1 v 1 is detected, both zones are collapsed and two arena-sized shrinking sumo zones appear. Problem is solved, you now have to sumo, and it's the really nice sumoing that people like. Of course, this also changes it from fortress to sumo, which are different games.... Wink
about the respawn: it wasn't a real idea, respawning in fortress means to lose fortress and get somewhat else. also will change the level of the play.

fortress is a team game and sumo a single player game.
actually im disliking sumo. why don't people play fortress any more? where are the all stars of tron?
the fact is people are getting used to think sumo is a part of fortress, in this way it is normal they wait for the 1 on 1. this mania of 1 on 1 appeared after CVS was shut down. there people started to think sumo as a game type, instead of just a practice for fortress fights. now we want to invert this process and imo we need to go step by step and see what happens. or we could get that people just play elsewhere in a server that doesn't have those "exotics" features.
User avatar
Z-Man
God & Project Admin
Posts: 11710
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Cologne
Contact:

Post by Z-Man »

The spawn location does not matter much as long as the invulnerability time is reasonably large. I'd say the own zone center is a good place, a freshly respawned player could then do some emergency defense when the zone has been almost taken over completely by the enemy.

Continuous, unconditional respawns could work. Score needs to get adjusted, with the current scoring, the actual conquest of the fortress would probably matter too little. It is likely a stream of attackers with considerable losses is required to storm an always respawining defense, and giving too little points as a goal could make attacks not worthwile. Like it.

Yeah, I think we had the big sumo zone once it gets to 1 vs 1 suggestion before. With the currently available shrink functions, it would probably take too long for the sumo zones to shrink or they would spend too little time in the interesting radius regime of 20 to 50 grid units. But that doesn't have to stop us, of course.
Lucifer wrote:Maybe a death zone poll would be better. Let the people watching make the call. :)
This is the best suggestion so far. Some people see long 1 vs 1 fights as a problem, some don't, and "solving" the problem pisses off half of the people and may split the community into two. A vote option, allowing for case-by-case decisions, keeps the community together.
User avatar
2020
Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1322
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:21 pm
Location: the present, finally

Post by 2020 »

regarding voteable deathzone...
does this start in the centre of the two player's zones
or centre of grid...?
hold the line
User avatar
Z-Man
God & Project Admin
Posts: 11710
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Cologne
Contact:

Post by Z-Man »

Well, I'm thinking about adding a generic "execute console command preconfigured by server admin" vote and a "spawn death zone with these parameters here" console command, so this would be up to the server admin. I'd just use a nuke zone killing everyone instantly, though.
User avatar
2020
Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1322
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:21 pm
Location: the present, finally

Post by 2020 »

nuke death zone will just frustrate the 1v1 players

i think most players appreciate a good 1v1
after all
it is quite dramatic...
a bit of a climax really

i wouldn't like to leave that in the hands of dissing spectators
you know
the ones who spam when a 1v1 is going on now...
the ones who have no patience...

the game is severe enough for new players...

re: deathzones spawned within end-zones
you are right zman to suggest the attacker will lock the defender in
but i suspect defenders will evolve ways of ensuring it is a sumo...
by using the back wall for example
thus both players will be dealing with the same deathzone...
imagine it happening in a sumo competition...

i think this should be trialled...
deathzone after eg 60 seconds
and further play of eg 60 seconds as the deathzone increases
and if both players have survived
5-5 split
hold the line
User avatar
Rain
Round Winner
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: a random empty server playing with bots

Post by Rain »

It's not time to make a change, Just relax, take it easy...
User avatar
philippeqc
Long Poster - Project Developer - Sage
Posts: 1526
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:55 am
Location: Stockholm
Contact:

Post by philippeqc »

I just observed a behavior with zones v2 that might offer you new possibilities: the 'Hotel California' behavior. *

It is possible to associate it with the defending team. Attackers are free to enter and leave. Any player that has taken on him to defend the zone will have to stay in the fortress for its defense, on consequence of immediate death, points deduction, respanwning an enemy player, killing a random teammate, etc.

The fortress itself doesnt need to be the 'Hotel California'. Another, possibly bigger, of different shape, moving, rotating, non-circle zone might be used for that.

Restricting the movement of the goalie might change the dynamic from a defender game to an attacker game.

-ph

* "You can checkout any time you like,
But you can never leave! "
Canis meus id comedit.
Minefield
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:50 pm

Post by Minefield »

I have proposed a suggestion to a player known as "lrn-new-keys".

This suggestion is that he create a new game-type involving Fortress play AND Sumo.

We have respectively dubbed it "Team Fumo".

There will be 2 teams (3 on each side atm to avoid any unnecessary confusion), 2 forts on opposite sides of the arena, and 1 sumo ring in the middle.

The point of this is that if either ring is conquered, the opposing team loses the round, thus forcing 2 players to fight in the Sumo ring in the middle of the arena.

Meanwhile, the teams own fort will be guarded by another member, as its last remaining member is expected to invade the other fort.

This is what it breaks down to in the game's simplest (conceivable) form:

1 member fights it out in the Sumo ring.
1 member guards the fort.
1 member invades the enemy fort.

This is all assuming that no one goes gung-ho on the team.

What do you think?
User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer
Posts: 8742
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas

Post by Lucifer »

My personal take is if it doesn't require code changes, set up a server and post asking for feedback. :) Generally, less discussion and more action, when it's possible. (much of this thread discusses code changes and weighs code changes vs stuff that can be done already)
Check out my YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/@davefancella?si=H--oCK3k_dQ1laDN

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
Post Reply