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Sabarai
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Post by Sabarai »

Luke-Jr wrote:
Sabarai wrote:And if there's a mistake anyway there's abortion if you're not ready to be a parent, right?
Right... people who think that belong in a mental hospital or on death row (obviously sparing the child if possible).
So you mean the Dutch government belongs on death row? :P

Isn't it better to avoid something to get life (no, aborted foetussus are NOT alive when they're aborted and they CAN'T live in the form in which they are when they're aborted), than to force it to have a life, when that life will destroy TWO others (parents) and it will have a shitty life because the parents can't afford him or her, don't know how to raise it and don't have a clue about responsibility (else the child wouldn't have been conceived (I use child in lack of a better word)).

Most of the "accidents" that are born will go criminal and/or mad. They'll be a danger to society (Chalie Manson?).

Tank, if you don't want this discussion end it before we're at page 123412...
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Heh. Try throwing a 5 year old kid out and see if he can live in his current form.

Anyway, the point isn't abortion, the point is that suicide if you think you're pregnant is the same thing, morally speaking, as abortion, and the girl in question is "against abortion". Put the pieces together, eh? (Oops, I guess I already did)

(narrowly avoids a rant about treatment centers)
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skullflame
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Post by skullflame »

right, well thx 4 the support...i think
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Fonkay
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Post by Fonkay »

So glad silly's not here for this one.


/me backs away slowly from thread
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

skullflame69 wrote:right, well thx 4 the support...i think
You were asking for support? I thought you were looking for attention...

Harsh as that may sound, you gotta support yourself. I'm willing to offer some empathy, and even some sympathy, but I won't give you pity, and you have to support yourself. Thing about it is, Swampy's right, we do all have our own crosses to bear. My own experience tells me you only have 1 problem, which is the divorce. The others are just distractions. Might be hard to see right now, and I'm just some guy sitting in a room halfway across the country reading a webpage, so take it for what it's worth. Just don't reveal yourself to be one of those emo ***********, ok?
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skullflame
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Post by skullflame »

im not emo. but thx, :|
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2020
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Post by 2020 »

as for getting high as a response...
just delays the innevitable
which is to accept what is going on
which usually requires a strong and steady mind

sounds like a rough deal

how are things now?
hold the line
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Z-Man
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Post by Z-Man »

Ouch.

All I can say is that it's not your fault that your parents' marriage isn't working out. It's a thing between your father and your mother alone.
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skullflame
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Post by skullflame »

2020 wrote:
how are things now?
things are better, my dads still pissed a the world, lol its kinda weird but when i do one thing no matter what is is for to long he gets mad at me, its like he need constant change. my girlfriend is in newmexico visiting her dad shes comming back on my birthday witch is jan 2
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2020
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Post by 2020 »

my dad is pissed at the world too

seems to happen to a lot of men
expecially those with dreams and ambition

stay cool
and i wish 2007 is good for you

and for all tronners too :)
hold the line
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Now that I've done everything possible to paint myself as an insensitive clod, here's the longer post that I wasn't going to make before christmas. :)

I said you only have 1 problem, here's why.

First, your girlfriend. In my own experience, which is not trivial, when people try to kill themselves and *fail*, they're usually not trying to kill themselves. Rather, they're trying to get someone else to solve their problems for them. Here's a fact. When my brother was living with me and tried to kill himself for like the fifth time, I told him to "act like a man and solve his problems". My mom offered to solve his problems for him, so he packed up and went back to live with them. He hasn't tried to kill himself for a few years, not since he finally got married (to a woman who's more than willing to solve his problems for him, I should add), but previously, that was what it was all about. Think about it. If you kill yourself and you succeed, what are the people who knew/loved you going to do? They're going to "get on with their lives". Their friends/doctors/psychiatrists/whatever are all going to give them that same piece of crucial advice. When my wife tried to kill herself early in our marriage, I told her straight up it was all about attention. She didn't want to solve her problems, she wanted me (or someone else she knew) to solve them for her. She's not your basic suicidal type, either, so she was in pretty bad shape to be trying such a thing. I blew it off. I told her if she really wanted to kill herself, do it in the morning and I'll even help you if you need it. Of course, for most people, it's biologically impossible to commit suicide in the morning, after a good night's sleep, and more serious problems that woudl allow that are more than likely to be caught before it gets that far, but that's beside the point. :) So, tell her she has to solve her problems and she won't get any sympathy from you and she's likely to dump you. Which, in my view, is fine. I don't date a girl (or marry one!) who requires me to solve all her problems for her. I don't mind helping, I don't mind being a big part of her problem-solving resources, but in the end, if I'm not there for some reason, she has to be able to stand on her own two feet. That's why this isn't your problem. Your relationship to this problem is merely determining how much of this "look at me, I'm suicidal!" bullshit you want to deal with.

Your dad's drug problem is also his problem, but you can play a role in his recovery if you don't pussyfoot around it. You have to be willing to say straight up honest things to him with the courage that comes with knowing you might cause a relapse. You have to get up in his face and show him how he's hurt you in particular. You have to be able to deal with the fact that he's going to relapse, it's part of the recovery. I personally relapsed a couple of times, and it was a struggle that lasted in some form or other for nearly 8 years, and the only person I know who contributed significantly to recovery was my wife, who did all the things you isntinctively think you shouldn't do. In any case, it's his problem, and you have to get on with your life regardless. Luckily, you don't have to wait for him to kill himself to do it.

So we come to the problem that is yours, which is the divorce. Now, when I say it's your problem, I'm not saying it's your fault. There's a big difference between the two. It is almost a certainty that you have a role in the divorce, but responsibility for it lies directly on the shoulders of the two who failed to work out their problems. Believe you me, getting a divorce is a failure on both sides. A complete and utter failure, in fact. It's your problem because you have to deal with it now, you can't just blow it off (like you can with the other two "issues"), and it will have far-reaching effects on your life. It takes years for a kid to get over it, and some kids never get over it. Basically, what you need to do about it is get in your face to both of your parents and show them how them getting a divorce is ******* you over. Make them take complete responsibility for it. Don't let them waver, and when they start bickering over stupid shit, be the one with the balls to tell them they're bickering over stupid shit.

The underlying theme here is "balls". Have some balls. And one more thing, if you're getting high now, watch your dad carefully, because the problems he has now are going to be your problems eventually. I really do speak from experience here, as easy as it is to blow me off.
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Luke-Jr
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Post by Luke-Jr »

Sabarai wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote:
Sabarai wrote:And if there's a mistake anyway there's abortion if you're not ready to be a parent, right?
Right... people who think that belong in a mental hospital or on death row (obviously sparing the child if possible).
So you mean the Dutch government belongs on death row? :P
Maybe. I'd say there's a good chance most governments need overthrowing.
Sabarai wrote:Isn't it better to avoid something to get life (no, aborted foetussus are NOT alive when they're aborted and they CAN'T live in the form in which they are when they're aborted), than to force it to have a life, when that life will destroy TWO others (parents) and it will have a shitty life because the parents can't afford him or her, don't know how to raise it and don't have a clue about responsibility (else the child wouldn't have been conceived (I use child in lack of a better word)).
Babies are alive before they are born. As Lucifer points out, you're making the claim that they're not a person until they're about 10 years old. Why is it the child's fault that he/she was conceived? If it makes the parents' life crappy, its their own fault. Has it occurred to you that the biological parents don't need to raise the child?
Sabarai wrote:Most of the "accidents" that are born will go criminal and/or mad. They'll be a danger to society (Chalie Manson?).
You can't judge someone for something they haven't done yet. I suppose you would have supported assassination of Hitler when he was 5 years old?

BTW, the world sucks. Don't waste too much time being pissed at it or you won't get anything done. (this is to nobody in specific)
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Z-Man
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Post by Z-Man »

Luke-Jr wrote:I suppose you would have supported assassination of Hitler when he was 5 years old?
Err, actually, if it was reasonably certain that doing so would make the world an overall much better place, which isn't the case given the overall volatile political situation in Europe at that time, and if it was doable, I'd be for that. But that's of course a totally different debate. Here, you can't condemn unborn children on the grounds of statistics you just made up.

And since this would be my second post in a row where I agree with Luke to some point, which can't be, let me point out that IMHO, up to a certain point, the unborn child can be considered a part of the mother's body, and that thus all decisions concerning it are solely up to her. Giving a lump of cells the same rights as a fully grown human just because in the normal cause of things, it will become one, is a nice touch; but nobody should be forced to do that. That you should avoid getting pregnant (by the means of your choice) in the first place if you don't want a child goes without saying.
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Sabarai
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Post by Sabarai »

Luke-Jr wrote:Babies are alive before they are born. As Lucifer points out, you're making the claim that they're not a person until they're about 10 years old. Why is it the child's fault that he/she was conceived? If it makes the parents' life crappy, its their own fault. Has it occurred to you that the biological parents don't need to raise the child?
Yes, they are alive before they're born, but as z-man states, it starts out as a lump of cells with combined DNA of father and mother. It has no sense yet, no organs, no physical sex. All it is, is a lump of cells.
I'm saying that THAT isn't a person. It becomes a person as it obtains senses and responses, none earlier, none later.

So actually you're not killing it, you're preventing it to be alive.

And about the Hitler thing, watch z-man's post.
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skullflame
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Post by skullflame »

thanks lucifer, and i have tried talking to my dad about it, also ive slowed down a lot with drug habit.
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