You could say the same thing about chocolate pudding. Behold! The cult of chocolate pudding!Rain wrote:if it was for the church, now you wouldn't be using a computer.
A thing we'd like very much
-
Lucifer
- Project Developer
- Posts: 8643
- Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
- Location: Republic of Texas
- Contact:
Ah, I see. So we can't worship chocolate pudding on the basis of having computers now?
(sorry, I hate to correct people's english when I know that a) it's a second language for them and b) it's generally better than most Americans' english anyway, but perhaps you would rephrase that as "If it were up to the church"?)
(sorry, I hate to correct people's english when I know that a) it's a second language for them and b) it's generally better than most Americans' english anyway, but perhaps you would rephrase that as "If it were up to the church"?)
Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
This is fine.rain wrote:if it were up to the church, now you wouldn't be using a computer.
In fact I'd say that this is worse unless you changed it to wasn'tlucifer wrote:if it was for the church, now you wouldn't be using a computer.
Unless there's a rule that I don't know about.
I'm bored & it bugged me
-
Luke-Jr
- Dr Z Level
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:03 pm
- Location: IM: luke@dashjr.org
-
philippeqc
- Long Poster - Project Developer - Sage
- Posts: 1526
- Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:55 am
- Location: Stockholm
- Contact:
-
AdyLucifer
- Average Program
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:05 pm
Right,I like the derivated talk i origined here starting from a simple sugestion, from the bible, to chocolate...
I've finally got codeblocks working so i had a look at the codes, and got to say, nice job.
As i wanted some hud changes, i did them myself and compiled a personal version,just some color changes and a new function,but what i talked tabout here isnt something i can do by myself.
People seem to have not understood what i was talking about,so lets explain better:
The ladder itself needs to be rebuilt (as someone from the dev group said),yes,that's good.
I also heard about something long time ago like : Filtering the master server list, adding 'training' servers,etc.
The need of redoing the ladder, and filtering the server,can also be helped by this new thing i suggest to implement, and which is used on all mmorpg games( it's their esence i'd say), and mostly all online games.
The leveling system:
Each player starts at Level 0.
There would be 'experience' points in order to get promoted to a higher level such as Level 1, then Level2..etc.
Experience points,in my oppinion, have to be the total ammount of kills & opponent's team base conquers. Let's say, that for a player to get promoted to Level 1, it has to have 1000 exp points. if you get 10exp points per kill( just an example), you have to had killed 100 players, that is a good 'skill' level,and the player get promoted to Level1. I think now you get what i wanted to say before.Right,what's this for?Hm.
If you someday checked the lycos chat, part of the yahoo dot com web portal, there, in the chat, they assign a rank to each chat user.A low rank cant chat in a high rank chatroom,aswell as a high rank user cant chat in chatrooms which are assigned to lower ranks(i dont like this last thing tho).
In the other online games: The higher the rank or levcel you have, more things appear, such as guns in FPS online games, or new servers with new settings others,and we could try build sometihng similar here. Right.
What if,we make a setting for the servers,supposing that we have the level system implemented,something like player_min_level, and this setting determines if a player can actually play in that server,if he has the enough 'experience',the level.That would help in some ways, such as:
-the new players would spend time playing agains new players,learning at the same level,not getting '''pwned''' as they say by other advanced players. They couldnt interrupt a good match that some other ''high level'' guys are playing in lets say 'cafe'.
I dont say--kick new people fomr our servers-- NO.Just give them time to learn and then be able to play against equal opponents.
Limiting the minimum level to play in a server would do that.
¿Maybe limiting the max level for a server as the yahoo does?That would prevent skilled players to play in other ''noob'' servers, that way they would earn a lot of experience points,since they would be killing a lot of players,and the player_max_level could prevent it?I'm not sure about this last one but i'm just giving ideas.
There could be servers which allow both high and low level players.
If this is inspiring any of you,the level of the player could be added as 'Player level' in the table that appears when hitting tab.
To avoid any confusion,i'm a friendly person and i dont want to create different classes in this wonderful community, i just want to improve it.
Any opinions about this are welcome,please,not more chocolate.
Peace.
I've finally got codeblocks working so i had a look at the codes, and got to say, nice job.
As i wanted some hud changes, i did them myself and compiled a personal version,just some color changes and a new function,but what i talked tabout here isnt something i can do by myself.
People seem to have not understood what i was talking about,so lets explain better:
The ladder itself needs to be rebuilt (as someone from the dev group said),yes,that's good.
I also heard about something long time ago like : Filtering the master server list, adding 'training' servers,etc.
The need of redoing the ladder, and filtering the server,can also be helped by this new thing i suggest to implement, and which is used on all mmorpg games( it's their esence i'd say), and mostly all online games.
The leveling system:
Each player starts at Level 0.
There would be 'experience' points in order to get promoted to a higher level such as Level 1, then Level2..etc.
Experience points,in my oppinion, have to be the total ammount of kills & opponent's team base conquers. Let's say, that for a player to get promoted to Level 1, it has to have 1000 exp points. if you get 10exp points per kill( just an example), you have to had killed 100 players, that is a good 'skill' level,and the player get promoted to Level1. I think now you get what i wanted to say before.Right,what's this for?Hm.
If you someday checked the lycos chat, part of the yahoo dot com web portal, there, in the chat, they assign a rank to each chat user.A low rank cant chat in a high rank chatroom,aswell as a high rank user cant chat in chatrooms which are assigned to lower ranks(i dont like this last thing tho).
In the other online games: The higher the rank or levcel you have, more things appear, such as guns in FPS online games, or new servers with new settings others,and we could try build sometihng similar here. Right.
What if,we make a setting for the servers,supposing that we have the level system implemented,something like player_min_level, and this setting determines if a player can actually play in that server,if he has the enough 'experience',the level.That would help in some ways, such as:
-the new players would spend time playing agains new players,learning at the same level,not getting '''pwned''' as they say by other advanced players. They couldnt interrupt a good match that some other ''high level'' guys are playing in lets say 'cafe'.
I dont say--kick new people fomr our servers-- NO.Just give them time to learn and then be able to play against equal opponents.
Limiting the minimum level to play in a server would do that.
¿Maybe limiting the max level for a server as the yahoo does?That would prevent skilled players to play in other ''noob'' servers, that way they would earn a lot of experience points,since they would be killing a lot of players,and the player_max_level could prevent it?I'm not sure about this last one but i'm just giving ideas.
There could be servers which allow both high and low level players.
If this is inspiring any of you,the level of the player could be added as 'Player level' in the table that appears when hitting tab.
To avoid any confusion,i'm a friendly person and i dont want to create different classes in this wonderful community, i just want to improve it.
Any opinions about this are welcome,please,not more chocolate.
Peace.
The death is so sure of its victory,that it gives us a whole life to try escape.
Ah, that's a better description, thanks 
First, the negative points. Armagetron(Ad) is usually an action oriented game; it is just you and your skill vs the other players and their skill. Equipment plays a role, too, of course. But giving players with more experience additional bonus in the fight would just be the wrong way round. They already have more experience and should have the upper hand against new players. So the idea to give them more stuff, whatever that may be for us, gets a definite "no, i don't want that" from me.
What I also don't like is the notion that you have to play a long time to get the benefits from this system. MMOGs are, in part, huge time eaters where people play not for real fun, but for the only purpose of gaining levels or getting epic gear. That won't work for us.
The basic idea of finding a way to prevent players to enter servers before they are ready, however, is good, and it was brought up before.
Now the technical side. We're faced with the problem that AA is an open source game; that poses the challenge of where to store the player's experience. We could store it locally on the client; but just like everybody and their dog is running around with color codes in their name and having a different cycle and wall color, people would find out how to manipulate the experience data and spread that around. All the encryption in the world would not save us there.
We could store it on central or decentral servers that get fed the player data from the game servers. We'd need to accept data from all servers here, or else players will feel betrayed; then, of course, servers would pop up that artificially boost a player's experience, and we cannot do anything about it. Ban them one by one, but new ones will come. So that won't work either.
This leaves, as the only place, the game servers themselves. Let's assume for now we manage to integrate player authentication, and we manage to convince a good portion of the players to sign up. So every server can track accomplishments of those players who want their accomplishments tracked, and publish those via a database interface for everyone to query. We can't query the data from all servers (else see the previous problem), but what we could do would be this:
I'm thinking about achievements. Yeah, those things you get on Xbox live or the Orange Box games. Achievements local to servers. For example, an achievement could be:
- play a full match on Nixda.
- win a round on MBC.
- survive (don't die) an entire match of CTF.
- get kicked from shrunkland.
- switch teams every round for 20 minutes on Fortress Cafe.
- win a fast food tournament on Elimination Sumo.
- wait for 30 minutes for other players on an empty server.
- pwn the AIs.
The entry condition of servers could then be a list of achievements. So for example, to even play on Fortress Cafe, you first have to play an entire match on some Sumo server (not that that will help with the startup, but it's just an example). When you enter Cafe and don't have the required achievements, you get redirected to one of the servers where you can collect them. If server admins are a bit careful, there will not be too much jumping around (if server A requires some achievement from server B and that requires something from server C, then server A should be set up to redirect the player directly to C). Ideally, we would tell players before they enter a server whether they're allowed to play, but I fear that would require too much moving around of data.
Of course, there would be a place that collects all your achievements, and displays them on a webpage so you can show them around. If we make the system flexible enough, I would expect some very creative achievements to pop up. Remember the "find the hidden room" server? Now do that on CTWF, that would be fun. Especially the negative achievements, those could trigger interesting clan wars among clans who don't know how to turn them off (want to play here? Make some trouble on that server over the street.) And since achievements would be an incentive for players to get registered, the circle closes
First, the negative points. Armagetron(Ad) is usually an action oriented game; it is just you and your skill vs the other players and their skill. Equipment plays a role, too, of course. But giving players with more experience additional bonus in the fight would just be the wrong way round. They already have more experience and should have the upper hand against new players. So the idea to give them more stuff, whatever that may be for us, gets a definite "no, i don't want that" from me.
What I also don't like is the notion that you have to play a long time to get the benefits from this system. MMOGs are, in part, huge time eaters where people play not for real fun, but for the only purpose of gaining levels or getting epic gear. That won't work for us.
The basic idea of finding a way to prevent players to enter servers before they are ready, however, is good, and it was brought up before.
Now the technical side. We're faced with the problem that AA is an open source game; that poses the challenge of where to store the player's experience. We could store it locally on the client; but just like everybody and their dog is running around with color codes in their name and having a different cycle and wall color, people would find out how to manipulate the experience data and spread that around. All the encryption in the world would not save us there.
We could store it on central or decentral servers that get fed the player data from the game servers. We'd need to accept data from all servers here, or else players will feel betrayed; then, of course, servers would pop up that artificially boost a player's experience, and we cannot do anything about it. Ban them one by one, but new ones will come. So that won't work either.
This leaves, as the only place, the game servers themselves. Let's assume for now we manage to integrate player authentication, and we manage to convince a good portion of the players to sign up. So every server can track accomplishments of those players who want their accomplishments tracked, and publish those via a database interface for everyone to query. We can't query the data from all servers (else see the previous problem), but what we could do would be this:
I'm thinking about achievements. Yeah, those things you get on Xbox live or the Orange Box games. Achievements local to servers. For example, an achievement could be:
- play a full match on Nixda.
- win a round on MBC.
- survive (don't die) an entire match of CTF.
- get kicked from shrunkland.
- switch teams every round for 20 minutes on Fortress Cafe.
- win a fast food tournament on Elimination Sumo.
- wait for 30 minutes for other players on an empty server.
- pwn the AIs.
The entry condition of servers could then be a list of achievements. So for example, to even play on Fortress Cafe, you first have to play an entire match on some Sumo server (not that that will help with the startup, but it's just an example). When you enter Cafe and don't have the required achievements, you get redirected to one of the servers where you can collect them. If server admins are a bit careful, there will not be too much jumping around (if server A requires some achievement from server B and that requires something from server C, then server A should be set up to redirect the player directly to C). Ideally, we would tell players before they enter a server whether they're allowed to play, but I fear that would require too much moving around of data.
Of course, there would be a place that collects all your achievements, and displays them on a webpage so you can show them around. If we make the system flexible enough, I would expect some very creative achievements to pop up. Remember the "find the hidden room" server? Now do that on CTWF, that would be fun. Especially the negative achievements, those could trigger interesting clan wars among clans who don't know how to turn them off (want to play here? Make some trouble on that server over the street.) And since achievements would be an incentive for players to get registered, the circle closes
-
Rain
- Round Winner
- Posts: 300
- Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:59 pm
- Location: a random empty server playing with bots
This sounds like luke-jr's #rating script that is actually available with armabot via irc. The rank is determinated by killings and deaths. Ask luke-jr for more details.AdyLucifer wrote:Each player starts at Level 0.
There would be 'experience' points in order to get promoted to a higher level such as Level 1, then Level2..etc.
Experience points,in my oppinion, have to be the total ammount of kills & opponent's team base conquers.
I am not a fan of ladders, so it is useless that I start to say "no ladder bla bla bla..."
I have to admit the idea is well thought, but there are some points I really cannot agree with. They are the following.
The fortress or any kind of zone cannot be considered in the rating system since there are several servers that use no zone. This point reveals the first failure of the ranking, because a player who does not kill in a fortress game, but conquer the fortress many times, is a good player, in a "dog fight" (as they call it now) or "classic" (as i like to call it) server she/he is a camper instead.AdyLucifer wrote:have to be the total ammount of kills & opponent's team base conquers.
How is it supposed a noob to learn if she/he can play only with other noobs like her/him?AdyLucifer wrote:Just give them time to learn and then be able to play against equal opponents.
And how is it supposed a noob to improve her/his rank if she/he can only play with same ranked people?
It could happen that few players improve their skills faster and so they will pass to another rank with the detriment of some other players who will probably be bored of armagetron before they get into a better rank.
Otherwise their ranks will stall and they will never be able to pass to another rank.
Yes, I did not consider the new brand noobs that will probably be "pwned" more than the average noobs, but are we really getting so many new players everyday?
I think this will not be a problem anymore with "subcultures". Ask z-man for more details.AdyLucifer wrote:They couldnt interrupt a good match that some other ''high level'' guys are playing in lets say 'cafe'.
Also keep in mind that a noob who:
a) is able to speak english, a little at least
b) wants to learn how to play the game she/he is playing
c) pays attention to what the other players ask her/him to do and collaborate to reach it
... usually learns the basis of fortress in two minutes, that is not actually a big loss since they are, unfortunately, day by day more infrequent.
Indeed the fortress basis are quite simple and they allow teammates to work for the objective, even if the noob piddle around or die. Plato (formerly °°ps member) theorized them in this beautiful sentence:
"When you have grinded and splitted, then you can die."
I remember I got kicked long time ago from a server because I was "too good" and the other people were not having fun. Well, it made me angry but then I thought about it and now I agree with the choice of those players to kick me out. So I think that in a "noobs server", if the noobs are aware of the instruments and the powers they have, a "pro" player pwning all around would have short life.AdyLucifer wrote:¿Maybe limiting the max level for a server as the yahoo does?That would prevent skilled players to play in other ''noob'' servers, that way they would earn a lot of experience points,since they would be killing a lot of players,and the player_max_level could prevent it?
So, said that, what could be a better use of the ranking?
In my point of view the ranking has not to be an advantage to experienced players, but to new ones.
For example you could make low ranked players attend in spectator mode for some rounds before they can join a team. This joint with MESSAGE_OF_THE_DAY (that underwent a smart implementation in 0.2.8.3) will help a lot new players to understand what they are going to play and how they are supposed to do it.
I had other ideas about a good use of it, but i forgot them while writing, so i may add them later.
---------
EDIT:
Couldn't you use another example?? Now you put a bee in their bonnet.z-man wrote:So for example, to even play on Fortress Cafe, you first have to play an entire match on some Sumo server
---------
the post was long. let me have my little off topic.
@luke-jr: in italy we call it opinion, but i bet you are limited to Thuth and Untruth, right? FUD is what the church and christian religion in general used to convert most of the earth population to its confession.
END OF LINE
-
AdyLucifer
- Average Program
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:05 pm
@Z-man: i completely agree with what you propose,it seems to be the most practical and logical thing. 
.
@Rain:
How can a player learn while playing with ''noobs''.->It wouldnt learn much if some 'pro' player kills him in the first 5 sec. of the game either,so i think playing against your same skill level is good.
I guess all we can do now is wait and see what happens this year.
.@Rain:
How can a player learn while playing with ''noobs''.->It wouldnt learn much if some 'pro' player kills him in the first 5 sec. of the game either,so i think playing against your same skill level is good.
I guess all we can do now is wait and see what happens this year
.The death is so sure of its victory,that it gives us a whole life to try escape.