US Election 2016

[Lucifer]

You guys should get your peacekeeping troops ready. I don't think we'll need them, but just in case....

It will surprise nobody that I didn't vote for the orangutan. I voted for the first black man and the first woman. You know who I voted for this time.

[Z-Man]

Don't worry, the Blasmusik-Corps is standing by: https://youtu.be/CWvEtshA9_U
Nothing pacifies and unites a nation better than a zünft'ges Gschunkel.
(Apologies to actual Bavarians for butchering that)

[kyle]

I was going to sit back and not comment, but, I feel like it's worth posting. I'm sure you all know who I'm voting for and trust me it was not an easy decision for me. I've voted Libertarian party for president on all of the past elections, it's never been a straight ticket, and won't be this year either.

This year I'm not voting on a candidate I like. I more or less am picking the candidate that I dislike the least. It's a sad state of democracy when we have no qualified candidate/puppets running. I vote for what I think will have less world wars, and what I think will cause America and the world less pain. I know a lot of people here will disagree with me on who I am voting for, I was going to vote for RFK Jr, and about a week before he switched to back Trump I came to the same realization. I do not like the way the Trump left office, I think it was very disrespectful. But we cannot live in a nation where there are so many rules destroying Americans, where inflation remains high as we take in an support criminals. We cannot live in an America where the court systems are politically weaponized. in a place were if you make too much money your nation attacks you.

The economics under Biden have been terrible, and Kamala really has no different path. When the US is the worlds reserve currency, the actions of the US effect the whole world, it causes pain and turmoil across the world, that's been the issue with the insanely high federal funds rates. This is changed based on inflation, and inflation has been insane under Biden, the government kept spending on programs that aided in higher inflation. When you have hundreds of thousands of immigrants illegally in the US fighting for the same resources and potentially stealing them, prices are going to go up. That's exactly what we've seen. another 4 or 8 more years of this the wars around the world will intensify.

[sinewav]

I think kyle's account has been hacked by Russian bots.

[Z-Man]

I think kyle's account has been hacked by Russian bots.

While conspiracy narrative debunking trick 3, "Why would they bother?", would be enough to shoot this down, his IP range also hasn't changed. (In case someone takes this seriously).

kyle: You know what Trump's plan about the illegal immigrants is, right? Have them hunted down by special forces? Automatic 10 years prison for those that return? Provided you manage to expel them in the first place, because their country of origin, if you can even identify that, might not take them back? You realize that special prisons for them, some would say internment camps, are almost inevitable in that future if you think it through? Would that be worth a carton of milk costing five cents less? (assuming they're even a significant contributing factor in inflation, something for which casual research found no evidence)

[kyle]

I think kyle's account has been hacked by Russian bots.

While conspiracy narrative debunking trick 3, "Why would they bother?", would be enough to shoot this down, his IP range also hasn't changed. (In case someone takes this seriously).

It changed like 4 years ago when I got my own place, that surprisingly only has on high speed provider. (I don't think it's changes from any of the recent posts that I've made)
But I'm the same kyle that could beat sinewav at his own AOT racing maps and other posts where I mentioned the secrete group that created the ladle rules
Yes It may be shocking this is my beliefs, like I said I really don't like either option, but when looking at the peace, individual freedoms, and the economy, Trump is the better option.

kyle: You know what Trump's plan about the illegal immigrants is, right? ....

I cut it off because I don't think that will happen, Yes I know it's a risk and very costly if it does, IMO it'll be a little simpler. There will still be some that are hunted down and deported, those would be the criminals and the ones that are somehow, still not sure how this can happen, but are getting money from the government. The rest of the likely hard working ones will likely get some sort of amnesty, maybe in a form of slower pathway to citizenship. I think that is a reasonable path.

assuming they're even a significant contributing factor in inflation, something for which casual research found no evidence

Ya, I really don't see why people have yet to connect the dots on that one, it's a simple supply and demand issue that drives prices up, more people fighting for the same resources lowers supply and brings up prices, yes covid supplies did not help, but IMO we would have been in extreme deflation territory much sooner, even the fed through this inflation was lasting much longer than it should have. That is also part of why I believe we will end up keeping most of them in some way, just ship off the ones that are drawing down our economy. because if we get rid of them all, we will be in a recession pretty fast.

[Lucifer]

Kyle, you need to get out of your conservative news bubble. Here's some facts.

1. Trump said he'd build the wall. He built parts of it. So logically, if he says he's going to round up immigrants and put them in concentration camps, he's going to get some of them. Is this your idea of America?

2. Trump has encouraged political violence. He did it the first time, and there was violence. He's doing it again, and he's more brazen about it. Yes, he has plausible deniability so that *you* can say "he didn't mean it". But he does mean it. "Hang Mike Pence" were words that came out of his mouth. Now his supporters are saying "Shoot Liz Cheney". Is this your idea of America?

And you're ok with all of this because of the economy? You really think the president has that much control over the economy? Have you even read the constitution? Jeez, you can read our constitution in like 20 minutes. Try reading Z-Man's constitution. There's so much there, it takes hours. I've tried to read it, I got bored. But I've read our constitution numerous times. Do you even know what the president actually can and can't do?

Yes It may be shocking this is my beliefs, like I said I really don't like either option, but when looking at the peace, individual freedoms, and the economy, Trump is the better option.

Trump has openly stated that he'll round up anyone who criticizes him and put them in jail. This is your idea of "individual freedom". He has openly said this numerous times. Go check out a supercut on YouTube of him saying this. It's not secret, it's not liberal media spinning it. He has said it frequently.

I cut it off because I don't think that will happen, Yes I know it's a risk and very costly if it does, IMO it'll be a little simpler. There will still be some that are hunted down and deported, those would be the criminals and the ones that are somehow, still not sure how this can happen, but are getting money from the government. The rest of the likely hard working ones will likely get some sort of amnesty, maybe in a form of slower pathway to citizenship. I think that is a reasonable path.

I live about 100 miles from the border. There is *not* a wave of illegal immigrants coming across. I would see them. And I don't need some damn yankee telling me I should be afraid of good people who are actually coming across the border looking for the life your ancestors came here for, while conquering the land from the natives.

But the reality is that this will happen. He said he'd build the wall, and he meant it. He really tried. He's going to have "illegal immigrants" hunted down and killed. It doesn't even matter if he makes it a formal policy or not, because he'll direct the same people who rioted on January 6th to do the hunting. And they'll do it. It'll be 1855 all over again, except they won't be hunting slaves, they'll be hunting brown people.

And here's the thing that's so stupid about what you're syaing. All of our economic growth depends on both legal and illegal immigrants. Without both of those groups, we don't have economic growth, we have a depression worse than the Great One. You're actually voting to kill our economy. This is why our governor here in Texas does a lot of performative things about immigration, but he doesn't actually crack down on it, because if he did, the 8th largest economy in the world would collapse.

Ya, I really don't see why people have yet to connect the dots on that one, it's a simple supply and demand issue that drives prices up, more people fighting for the same resources lowers supply and brings up prices, yes covid supplies did not help, but IMO we would have been in extreme deflation territory much sooner, even the fed through this inflation was lasting much longer than it should have. That is also part of why I believe we will end up keeping most of them in some way, just ship off the ones that are drawing down our economy. because if we get rid of them all, we will be in a recession pretty fast.

No, that's not the whole story. You show a very sophomoric understanding of economics here. It is a demonstrable fact that rich CEOs and boards of directors took advantage of the inflation spiking to tack on a few more points. Without that greed, inflation would have spiked at 5%, not the 8% we actually saw. That's 3 points of inflation that your buddy Elon and Trump's cronies all tacked on, and they knew they could get away with it because Biden would be blamed, and then Trump would win. And you want to give a condescending lecture about supply and demand.

Know your ******* facts before you lecture me, boy.

[Lucifer]

Just so we're clear, I'll be one of Trump's targets. So you literally just voted to have me imprisoned, Kyle. Thanks a lot. I thought you were a friend.

[Z-Man]

Yeah, what Lucifer said, basically: Last time, everything Trunp announced he would do, he tried to do. And more. He (allegedly) would have had the BLM protestors shot. There are two reasons he didn't get to do everything: He was so surprised himself that he won that he was totally unprepared, and there were people there to stop him. That would not work so well this time.

the ones (illegal immigrants) that are somehow, still not sure how this can happen, but are getting money from the government.

Yeah, you notice it yourself, how exactly would that happen? To get government funds, you need some form of identification. The only kind of charity they can get are direct handouts, like from soup kitchens. Are those maybe the same illegal immigrants that are voting multiple times?

assuming they're even a significant contributing factor in inflation, something for which casual research found no evidence

Ya, I really don't see why people have yet to connect the dots on that one, it's a simple supply and demand issue that drives prices up, more people fighting for the same resources lowers supply and brings up prices, yes covid supplies did not help, but IMO we would have been in extreme deflation territory much sooner, even the fed through this inflation was lasting much longer than it should have.

That's half of the equation. They also do work (illegally, without paying taxes, also without costing their employer taxes) and increase supply. So that should more or less cancel out.

That is also part of why I believe we will end up keeping most of them in some way, just ship off the ones that are drawing down our economy. because if we get rid of them all, we will be in a recession pretty fast.

There, see, you noticed that yourself too. They are simply used as convenient scapegoats.

Just putting a couple of things straight:

"Hang Mike Pence" were words that came out of his mouth.

If he said that directly, it was off the record. The impolite visitors to congress chanted that on Jan 6, and it was reported that Trump showed approval. Given that he didn't immediately go public to announce "Gee, folks, that's not what I meant you to do, please go home", I don't consider it unlikely.

Trump has openly stated that he'll round up anyone who criticizes him and put them in jail.

I find nothing as wide-reaching as that. However, he often enough said things that go in that general direction. That specific dissenters should be locked up. That dissent to the supreme court decisions should be illegal.

But yeah. Listen to what he says. That's what he would try to do. Especially if he says it on a rally and the crowd cheers. That's his compass. That is what counts. If you vote for him for one thing he promises, hoping he won't do another thing he promises, or not as much, you're fooling yourself.

[sinewav]

...but when looking at the peace, individual freedoms, and the economy, Trump is the better option.

As others have said you seem to have an incomplete understanding of "the economy" or at least a naive view of the interplay between the large business who own our government and its relationship to labor. I've had the displeasure of reading several more economics books than I ever wanted to (which is zero), but even without that knowledge it's pretty clear to see immigration is a non-issue. First, you surely understand that the US government, regardless of who is in office, has the power to stop immigration almost completely, immediately. But they don't because big business wants cheap labor and you can't have economic growth without it (thanks capitalism!). All the rhetoric around immigration is just xenophobic othering and that's why I pay no attention to it. Literally hate speech.

Trump is responsible for taking freedoms away from women and the entire US right-wing is obsessed with controlling people's sex and gender. That certainly doesn't sound like the party of individual freedoms.

And peace? You mean bending the knee to countries like Russia and North Korea and abandoning NATO? That's not a future I can get behind. Besides, the reason why there is relative peace in the world has nothing to do with the president and everything to do with globalization and central banking, which both parties are solidly behind.

[Monkey]

I watched the Trump rally at Madison Square Garden recently (on television, I wasn't there of course). Now, that was ****** up... and I mean really ****** up. The appearance of Hulk Hogan (in full costume and character) and his speech, was ****** up. The worst part though (and there were many bad parts to choose from, believe me), was when "comedian" (and I use the term very loosely) Tony Hinchcliffe said, in his speech, and I quote:
"There’s literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. I think it’s called Puerto Rico."

I'm so glad that I don't live in the US I can't even tell you. My country (the UK) is ****** up and has been for years but the US is on its own special level. At least I have some hope under a new government (although they are far from perfect) whereas you guys are just screwed. The fact that Trump has so many supporters is utterly shocking to me.

[kyle]

Sorry for cherrypicking you Lucifer, I read most of what is here, but Don't have much time to respond to it all. and if you were to be someone that somehow would be deported under Trump, which I think the likelyhood is 0, I'd try my best to vogue for you.

I live about 100 miles from the border. There is *not* a wave of illegal immigrants coming across. I would see them.

I'm sorry to tell you that you would not see them. I was down in Brownsvile (south padre island) just a few days after the first starship launch(missed it, but got a piece of the pad) Anyway a week before I left, my local news in Indiana talked about how they had to close the border there to stop immigrants from crossing, while I was down there a whole wave of thousands ended up crossing. Guess what My Flight to DWF from BRO was full and at least 1/2 of the people were migrants, BRO airport smelled horribly, (no it did not smell that way when we got in) as migrants were lined up all over the place there.
I wish I would have paid more attention as to how they were actually getting on the flights, but this was the start of the much larger waves of them coming in. I do know the TSA officers were not very happy either.

So not being at the border, you are not going to see them as they are shipping them past you.

^^Initially planned to post just the above, but had a little more time

Trump likes to instil fear, so maybe they will leave on their own if he's elected. He likes to use smilies and metaphors, were part of the comparison is sometimes violent action, the media likes to pick up on the violent action and strip out the comparison he is actually doing.

Although I really don't care about defining Trump, He's not really who I want, I just dislike what Biden/Harris have been doing much more, than how things were when Trump was in office. and I think it's a crucial enough vote, that I should pick a side, rather than voting 3rd party

To set the record straight, I don't oppose immigration, I oppose illegal immigration, and mainly those hat are causing physical harm to Americans.
We need the wall to stop illegal immigration
We need some sort of amnesty for those in the US that are hard working
But we do need to remove those in the US killing and physically harming many US citizens. or the ones that the US government are financially supporting

Sorry this is maybe slightly far stretched, but not that much.
But the democratic view is let them all in, let them rape your kids, and don't punish them for that, those fleeing other counties because they are sexual predictor, you get an expiated pas to come live in America. The Democrats have no way of punishing anyone except for punishing those who speak up against what they want the narrative to be. I just cannot vote to see that crap continue to happen.

[Lucifer]

And peace? You mean bending the knee to countries like Russia and North Korea and abandoning NATO? That's not a future I can get behind. Besides, the reason why there is relative peace in the world has nothing to do with the president and everything to do with globalization and central banking, which both parties are solidly behind.

If we're on the path to WWIII, Trump winning this election will be a step towards that war, not away from it. Trump's going to sell out Ukraine. He already tried before, that was what his first impeachment was all about. Putin was hoping Ukraine would be like Czechoslovakia was in the 30s: he'd be able to just take it for himself, maybe establish a puppet state, maybe make it part of the Russian Empire, but whatever, nobody would do anything. But rather than declare war on Russia, we've been fueling Ukraine's defense.

And kudos to y'all Europeans for really stepping up, here. In the US, there are a lot of people whining about how we shouldn't be funding the Ukraine war, but the reality is that it's mostly a European war. When Ukraine wins a tank battle, they're driving German tanks. I mean, it's not like the US isn't helping, and I do believe that if we stopped helping, Ukraine would definitely lose, so we need to keep doing what we're doing, and possibly increase what we're doing. It's just that most Americans have no idea how much effort is being put in in total, and the European countries are bearing the brunt of that effort.

So anyway, if Putin's fine with just taking Ukraine, then when Trump steps back from it, there's no larger European war to worry about. It'll suck, particularly for Ukraine, but it won't be WWIII.

The other obvious conflict Trump is going to exacerbate, however, could be the trigger for WWIII, and that's Israel vs Gaza, a war with no good guys, and a potential genocide happening under its cover. If that war expands to a general middle eastern conflict, I guarantee what Trump will do will pull the rest of the world into a war there, and probably leading to a multi-theatre war. You know, a world war.

So no, Trump isn't the peaceful candidate because we all think he's going to back away from conflicts that are happening. US involvement is one of the driving forces keeping these conflicts regional rather than spreading.

[Word]

Don't worry, the Blasmusik-Corps is standing by: https://youtu.be/CWvEtshA9_U
Nothing pacifies and unites a nation better than a zünft'ges Gschunkel.
(Apologies to actual Bavarians for butchering that)

Reading through all this, I'll write a more thought-out reply later when I have time. I just wanted to share this clip of Buttigieg talking to undecided voters. He makes a compelling case I think, even though that video is probably campaign-sponsored. From my foreign perspective, it does feel good that there's still some intellectual substance, "love your neighbour"-spirit, calm and sanity left in US politics – and I don't want this to sound arrogant, since the right-wing people are continously on the rise over here as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE1f3n_n9UA

Trump likes to instil fear, so maybe they will leave on their own if he's elected. He likes to use smilies and metaphors, were part of the comparison is sometimes violent action, the media likes to pick up on the violent action and strip out the comparison he is actually doing.

"Maybe it'll leave on its own" = also Trump's anti-Covid stance, until he got it himself and was treated with some medical prototype he only had access to because he was lucky to be president at the time, while hundreds of thousands of people died, including many of his supporters, who believed in his medical expertise and followed his advice. If we talk about "how things were when Trump was in office", let's not leave out that little pandemic we all went through and the people who still have an empty chair at the family table or some long-term symptoms.

The economics under Biden have been terrible, and Kamala really has no different path

A lot of that are still consequences of Covid and these ridiculous trade wars with China. Energy-wise, the Russia/Ukraine war is a desaster for Germany. That money was supposed to fight climate change. Instead, we have to fix the mess Trump left for us when he withheld critical military aid for Ukraine just so that Selensky would look into Hunter Biden's business dealings, which admittedly had an air of nepotism and corruption to them thanks to his name but are a far cry from Trump's/Kushner's dealings with Saudi Arabia.

[Z-Man]

I wish I would have paid more attention as to how they were actually getting on the flights

You're infuriatingly close to understanding the ridiculousness of it all Now, I don't know what kind of security checks you guys are subjected to on cross-country flights, but if I were an illegal immigrant, an airport with all the security buzzing around would be the last place you would find me. Heck, even here, we got our bags of medicine for Z-Girl checked by guys with machine pistols on our last flight out.

So not being at the border, you are not going to see them as THEY are shipping them past you.

(emphasis mine)
That's point 2 on my conspiracy checklist. Do you really think THEY, by which I assume you mean the government in this case, would be able to coordinate such an operation? Them? Those clowns? Without anyone down the chain of command ratting them out?

But the democratic view is let them all in, let them rape your kids, and don't punish them for that

Name one example of someone raping a child and then getting out free at any point in the process, be it at the time of arrest, in court, or getting a pardon later, because they were an illegal immigrant. Just one.
Riight, your next thought after "oops, I can't actually cite an example" is going to be "But it could be true! It could happen! I would not put it past them!". That is the standard coping mechanism. I had it happen to me the other day, when a colleague announced they would be installing security cameras at our offices. (It was just a joke, not misinformation)
But no. It could not happen. But you know who really gets away with sexual assault and rape? Rich white guys.