Is tron ever going to be hard again?
Is tron ever going to be hard again?
Topic pretty much says it all. This whole ability to just camp on walls is silly. Seems like all tron is now is go real fast and 180. There used to be a time where you died if you hit a wall, not just took a short break.
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LETE
- Core Dumper
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well, there are servers out there that make double binding useless, since the turn size is equal to the fastest you are able to do single handedly so to speak. Then there’s always those obscure little servers that all seam to have rubber set to one. But, this game is a progression, an evolution of the first tron, and today’s version seems to be more popular, and generally more user ready, anyone can come off the street and play, which is nice in a way, since the regulars seem more and more irregular. all in all though, I think its a fun experience, wall crawlers(ooh, did I just coin a phrase?) are easy to take care of, and speed (for me) has always been a plus, I can't stand going to some servers these days, I feel like I’m dragging weights or something. 
But yah, some things are better, some are worse, but its still a fun game, I don't think that’s likely to change no matter how easy the changes make it .
But yah, some things are better, some are worse, but its still a fun game, I don't think that’s likely to change no matter how easy the changes make it .
Thats just it, its not really all that fun. grinding has been negated by the ability 180/readjust however many times you want, and tunneling is dead for the same reason. Seems like the only viable strategy anymore is to go real fast, try to circle them and 180 if it doesnt work, or just camp, either way I miss the old tron. If you pay half attention its pretty much impossible to die anymore. I took a break from tron for a few months to see if it was just me getting tired of the game again, but I came back, and the exact same stuff that caused me to quit in the first place immediatly started pissing me off again. Id use 2.6, but there are no servers that get players that use 2.6, and single player just gets old.
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LETE
- Core Dumper
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thats true, games are lasting allot longer with such large grids and infinate walls are hard to come by, thats what kind of bothers me, why try to tunnel out when you can just wind up your wall for awhile and zip out. (not that I don't do it of course) The only person I really see abousing grinding is Uchi, but whatever. Anyway, do you think its just the players styles that are messing things up? or do you think setting changes could fix things?
Its how they changed the rubber that is doing it. It used to be if you hit a wall and spent much more time than absolutely necessary to press the turn key, you would die. Unless they had retardedly high rubber. Now on any server I can hit a wall, take a hit of my smoke, press turn, and be perfectly ok. tron used to be all about the twitch, fast thinking, and reflexes. Now it just seems to be who can camp the longest/run away the best. The rubber how it is now is pretty close to having rubber set to around 10 or 15 on 2.6
I understand the need to make the rubber fair for all sides, but how about we make it fair in the you're all going to die way, not in the "Oh we hit a wall, lets set up camp" way. What initially drew me to tron was the speed, aggression, and skill required. Now all thats left is the speed 8(
I understand the need to make the rubber fair for all sides, but how about we make it fair in the you're all going to die way, not in the "Oh we hit a wall, lets set up camp" way. What initially drew me to tron was the speed, aggression, and skill required. Now all thats left is the speed 8(
For everyone who thinks rubber works too well: try connecting to "0.2.7.1 HARD RUBBER TEST". That's the server with the modified rubber configuration. It runs perfectly normal 0.2.7.1 code, only with settings that emulate 0.2.7.0's tendency to have rubber not working properly if you wait too long with your turn.
It feels 'solid' and catches some lag but you can't quickly 180 or 90-90 against a wall because that bounces.-
Phytotron
- Formerly Oscilloscope
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Here I come with my first post ever. It's rather damn long as all hell, but uh, yeah. I promise most others won't be, heh.
So, I only began playing maybe a month or two ago (just after I got broadband), and have always used 2.7.1, and yet I find I agree with youse.
First, I'll say a couple things in praise of rubber. For one, like doublebinding, it's a good thing for lazy folks like myself who don't like to put too much energy into the reaction and reflexes all the time. For two, similarly to ping_rubber, it's a good thing for folks like myself who get a low framerate -- I'm lucky to get around 20 fps, and once it gets above, say, 6 players, depending on the server, I usually drop to the 4-8 range (a subject for another post). So it's nice to have that little cushion there when things get stuttery [* see comment at bottom]. I also find some enjoyment in deliberately getting myself caught in boxes and then riding through all the little the seams, just for fun. More on that in a moment.
Now the bad. Yah, most everyone plays the same now. Of course, I'm somewhat guilty of it myself, because sometimes you have to give in and use some of these "techniques" to match them, if you want to win. Still, it's no good. At any rate, as I see it there are two main types, with another that's sort of a blend of the two. I'm sort of repeating some things here, but consider it massive elaboration, heh.
The first type are those who I call the "speed demons." Kind of speaks for itself. These are the people who do nothing but 180 repeatedly, tunnel, and grind like nuts in order to build up as much speed as possible, then try to jump on and overtake someone. They do a couple 180s and/or adjusts on a wall to create a seal to the box they've made, then run away, self-satisfied that they've trapped someone. Then they do it again to someone else. Of course, they also avoid the middle of the arena like the plague. A player can master this, becoming a one-trick pony, and dominate matches. But as you say, it's boring. Another nickname for these people might be "Shaqs," because like the ball player, they're just ogres who use, in this case, overwhelming speed rather than huge size to dominate. But there's not much else in the way of skill. What I like to do here is go ahead and let them make one of their big boxes around me, and then start riding around in the seams in one direction or another. I can either follow them, or go the opposite way and meet them on the other side of the arena somewhere. I'd like to see the 'looks on their cycles,' so to speak, when they see this guy they thought they had trapped suddenly appear in front of them on the other end. Sometimes they even seem to react like they've seen a ghost and go all screwy with their cycles and mess up. Like I say, in high-rubber servers (esp. 15/150), there's always a way out of a box. Always. You may get lost, you may screw up, but there's always a way out.
The second type are those who Lete called the wall crawlers, and I call "wall huggers" or "wall campers." Their play is characterized by tunneling at the beginning of a match (like just about everyone does now), then making a beeline for the outer rim. They then proceed to 180 and adjust incessantly, going multiple layers deep into the rim, just waiting for someone who doesn't know better to try and come up and get behind them. Of course, it never works for the latecomer because the wall hugger already has a headstart in layers. So, boom. Or, there are other scenarios a variations I won't detail, but you've probably seen them all. Again, there's no real skill here other than making sure they don't use up their rubber. But, core dumps accumulate nonetheless. That, or they just camp out there until the zone comes up. I've found the best way to beat these people is to go to the rim, lure them into coming after you (they're usually pretty cocky about owning that wall), and then make for the corner. Use up all your rubber on it, and turn; maybe do a couple 180s for safe measure. They're so confident they can make that corner, but they never do. It's a cheap way to get them, but it's kind of deserved, ya know.
Then there's the blend where the person may wall hug for awhile, making a long tail, and then when someone comes near they pop out from behind it with all that speed and envelop them. Then right back to the wall. Sort of an ambush ::cough:: What can be good here is to make a sort of 'reverse box' whereby you've boxed them against the outer rim. Hang out in the middle of the arena (where all the fun is) and they eventually will run out of room.
What's so confounding about all this, besides it being boring and cheap, is that the people who do it are so arrogant about it. They condescend to anyone who plays in a more "old school" manner...and find it utterly inexplicable when you beat them with some maneuver other than those above. Make a comment about their tactics and it's "learn to play" or "if you don't like it then leave" in response. And they really hate any kind of mazing or roulette ("camper!"). But they love the winzone, because of course, when the rubber's high one can just survive forever, rather than having to actually take people on, and then just drive from point A to point B to win the round (especially bad in servers that award extra points at the end of the round).
Well, I think I've exhausted my rant/diatribe.
[Now my * comment. This might be better placed in the development forums, but I'll go ahead here. Someone could move it, perhaps. Anyway, so there's the ping_rubber that gives people a little extra rubber to compensate for their high ping, right. Built in sportsmanship, yay. I was wondering if it might also be possible to have a rubber setting that was dependent on one's fps. So, as one's framerate decreased, the rubber would increase some to compensate (inversely proportional). Not so much as to give them some major advantage, but enough to make up for the loss in fps, you see. If this were possible, then me thinks the developers could perhaps even eliminate the generalized cycle_rubber altogether. That way there'd be the best of both worlds compromise: Rubber in place as a playability cushion, but not for all the ridiculous grinding. I dunno, just thought.]
So, I only began playing maybe a month or two ago (just after I got broadband), and have always used 2.7.1, and yet I find I agree with youse.
First, I'll say a couple things in praise of rubber. For one, like doublebinding, it's a good thing for lazy folks like myself who don't like to put too much energy into the reaction and reflexes all the time. For two, similarly to ping_rubber, it's a good thing for folks like myself who get a low framerate -- I'm lucky to get around 20 fps, and once it gets above, say, 6 players, depending on the server, I usually drop to the 4-8 range (a subject for another post). So it's nice to have that little cushion there when things get stuttery [* see comment at bottom]. I also find some enjoyment in deliberately getting myself caught in boxes and then riding through all the little the seams, just for fun. More on that in a moment.
Now the bad. Yah, most everyone plays the same now. Of course, I'm somewhat guilty of it myself, because sometimes you have to give in and use some of these "techniques" to match them, if you want to win. Still, it's no good. At any rate, as I see it there are two main types, with another that's sort of a blend of the two. I'm sort of repeating some things here, but consider it massive elaboration, heh.
The first type are those who I call the "speed demons." Kind of speaks for itself. These are the people who do nothing but 180 repeatedly, tunnel, and grind like nuts in order to build up as much speed as possible, then try to jump on and overtake someone. They do a couple 180s and/or adjusts on a wall to create a seal to the box they've made, then run away, self-satisfied that they've trapped someone. Then they do it again to someone else. Of course, they also avoid the middle of the arena like the plague. A player can master this, becoming a one-trick pony, and dominate matches. But as you say, it's boring. Another nickname for these people might be "Shaqs," because like the ball player, they're just ogres who use, in this case, overwhelming speed rather than huge size to dominate. But there's not much else in the way of skill. What I like to do here is go ahead and let them make one of their big boxes around me, and then start riding around in the seams in one direction or another. I can either follow them, or go the opposite way and meet them on the other side of the arena somewhere. I'd like to see the 'looks on their cycles,' so to speak, when they see this guy they thought they had trapped suddenly appear in front of them on the other end. Sometimes they even seem to react like they've seen a ghost and go all screwy with their cycles and mess up. Like I say, in high-rubber servers (esp. 15/150), there's always a way out of a box. Always. You may get lost, you may screw up, but there's always a way out.
The second type are those who Lete called the wall crawlers, and I call "wall huggers" or "wall campers." Their play is characterized by tunneling at the beginning of a match (like just about everyone does now), then making a beeline for the outer rim. They then proceed to 180 and adjust incessantly, going multiple layers deep into the rim, just waiting for someone who doesn't know better to try and come up and get behind them. Of course, it never works for the latecomer because the wall hugger already has a headstart in layers. So, boom. Or, there are other scenarios a variations I won't detail, but you've probably seen them all. Again, there's no real skill here other than making sure they don't use up their rubber. But, core dumps accumulate nonetheless. That, or they just camp out there until the zone comes up. I've found the best way to beat these people is to go to the rim, lure them into coming after you (they're usually pretty cocky about owning that wall), and then make for the corner. Use up all your rubber on it, and turn; maybe do a couple 180s for safe measure. They're so confident they can make that corner, but they never do. It's a cheap way to get them, but it's kind of deserved, ya know.
Then there's the blend where the person may wall hug for awhile, making a long tail, and then when someone comes near they pop out from behind it with all that speed and envelop them. Then right back to the wall. Sort of an ambush ::cough:: What can be good here is to make a sort of 'reverse box' whereby you've boxed them against the outer rim. Hang out in the middle of the arena (where all the fun is) and they eventually will run out of room.
What's so confounding about all this, besides it being boring and cheap, is that the people who do it are so arrogant about it. They condescend to anyone who plays in a more "old school" manner...and find it utterly inexplicable when you beat them with some maneuver other than those above. Make a comment about their tactics and it's "learn to play" or "if you don't like it then leave" in response. And they really hate any kind of mazing or roulette ("camper!"). But they love the winzone, because of course, when the rubber's high one can just survive forever, rather than having to actually take people on, and then just drive from point A to point B to win the round (especially bad in servers that award extra points at the end of the round).
Well, I think I've exhausted my rant/diatribe.
[Now my * comment. This might be better placed in the development forums, but I'll go ahead here. Someone could move it, perhaps. Anyway, so there's the ping_rubber that gives people a little extra rubber to compensate for their high ping, right. Built in sportsmanship, yay. I was wondering if it might also be possible to have a rubber setting that was dependent on one's fps. So, as one's framerate decreased, the rubber would increase some to compensate (inversely proportional). Not so much as to give them some major advantage, but enough to make up for the loss in fps, you see. If this were possible, then me thinks the developers could perhaps even eliminate the generalized cycle_rubber altogether. That way there'd be the best of both worlds compromise: Rubber in place as a playability cushion, but not for all the ridiculous grinding. I dunno, just thought.]
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Jonathan
- A Brave Victim
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My version: a spiral in the tiny long stretched box.Oscilloscope wrote:The second type are those who Lete called the wall crawlers, and I call "wall huggers" or "wall campers." Their play is characterized by tunneling at the beginning of a match (like just about everyone does now),
(if the settings allow for it like on Swampland)I use the rim if I'm forced in that direction with limited space or if it's a faster way to get somewhere. I don't do that much on Swampland because of cycle_rubber_speed 200 and cycle_rubber_mindistance .01. The ring server is much better for that, and it requires skill to prevent bounces.then making a beeline for the outer rim. They then proceed to 180 and adjust incessantly, going multiple layers deep into the rim, just waiting for someone who doesn't know better to try and come up and get behind them.
It's added to your ping.I was wondering if it might also be possible to have a rubber setting that was dependent on one's fps.
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Phytotron
- Formerly Oscilloscope
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Same here.Jonathan wrote:I use the rim if I'm forced in that direction with limited space or if it's a faster way to get somewhere. I don't do that much on Swampland because of cycle_rubber_speed 200 and cycle_rubber_mindistance .01. The ring server is much better for that, and it requires skill to prevent bounces.
Oh. Alrighty then. I'm good at having novel ideas and then coming to find that they've already been implemented.Jonathan wrote:It's added to your ping.