Ladle 83

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compguygene
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by compguygene »

While the last 5-7 posts were made, I took that time to start a pm trial. We will do this by our own rules.
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Hoax
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by Hoax »

Liiiiiiz :| really

As far as some kind of punishment goes the only rule broken was playing twice (& I guess implications for the bowl qualification but that's a mockery anyway)

Let's spare a thought for House & vein though, who both yesterday decided to found BIBLA (been impersonated by liz annonymous), who were made to look like they were playing like a big girl.



On a more serious note that warning & penalties page looks so over complicated & im guessing ineffective, at least this might be an opportunity to bring up simplifying the ladle maybe, without trying to distract from the issue here.
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Gazelle
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by Gazelle »

I completely agree with Over and pr3. I think something should definitely happen. I think maybe a ladle or two ban maybe even three.

Yes she is a repeat offender and deserves a severe punishment. I just think forever is a little too much.
Last edited by Gazelle on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by Snxpflash »

Pr3 wrote:
Vogue wrote:He didn't know because who the hell cares about Acceleration vs Sh? Nobody bothered to check that result or who played for which team. I came in and said I could play, we conjured an alias (Vein) and that was that. I later told Mister I had already played after I broke the rules because I figured he knew, but he didn't.
So you expect us to believe that Mr didn't know you already played and didn't question the need for you to use an "alias"? Did he not know you were the focal point of Acceleration? Did he not bother to check the wiki? Did he give two fu#ks? Can you two stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes because we're not this stupid. This whole thing is ridiculous and demands severe punishment from this community. This type of behavior not only ruins the spirit of competition but mocks every person who follows the "rules". If we let this go unpunished, what's to stop future players from breaking the rules. I think there should be a community vote to decide the punishment of both Liz and Mister. Liz should receive the most severe punishment in light of it being a repeat offense, and that punishment should be severe enough to send a message. Mr also should receive punishment based on what the community decides is adequate for his actions.
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Pr3 wrote:
Vogue wrote: Anyway, go have your rematch with R if that makes your butt feel a little better. Ban me from ladle for a lifetime for all I care, IDGAF.
Forget the rematch. The Ladle is over, R won and all we can do now is clean up your mess.

Liz, It's obvious you "DGAF" about this community and you will continue to cheat at your leisure. You have taken this game that we all love and spoiled it. This community is built on fair play and trust, and you have cheated the game and this community multiple times.

Not only do I think you should be banned from all future ladles. I also think you should be banned from all future sumo and fort tournaments. If I had my way, I'd ban you from the entire game. But I'm sure you'd just find a way to cheat yourself back in.

I knew you were not to be trusted for a long time. And this probably does not only happen in this game. For all we know you're a cheater in life. Are you playing the game from prison somewhere? Are you stealing WiFi in order to play? What else do you do that you think you can get away with? This is the image that you are portraying. You freely admit it, you're a cheater. And you don't care. That's almost psychopathic.

I'd ask you to step away from this game, but you'd only find a way to cheat yourself back in. So what can we do? As a community, what should we do? I reach out to all of you to figure out how to keep people like this from destroying our game and our community. Because people like Liz and Mr will certainly do that.

I quoted both of these, because after a lot of thought I came to the same conclusion before getting to read them.

The word "community" has been tossed around a LOT lately. Which leads me to even more strongly believe there are a LOT of people who want to see Armagetron continue to grow as apposed to letting it sink with the 'few' people who "DGAF" what happens. So, just as vogue deserves punishment for her actions we need to consider what this community deserves as well. We do not deserve to have our Ladles F***ED with. For some of us, it's all we have and the 1 thing keeping us here. It's obvious vogue absolutely cannot benefit from punishment of any kind whatsoever so It's time to consider what would be of best benefit to this community. If vogue is banned from tron for LIFE she will just "LOL". If she is allowed to remain and play with some other sort of discipline.. She will just "LOL" even louder. Her responses in this thread have shown less and less need for self preservation as she's accepting that 'this time' she's probably not going just get a FREE-Pass like all the other times. Right?

100% Agree with Pr3; vogue needs banned from all tournaments including pickup. If she wants to start crap on public servers, there is a 'silence' button for that or Mod's can choose to ban her or not to and players can choose to play with her or play elsewhere. In the event this discipline unleashes her trolling ways, then further banning her from the Arama forums and asking all other major clan forums to do the same. Also as pr3 said, she's going to find a way to hack her way back in and change ip's and troll everyone because she [again] cannot accept discipline and this is in fact the internet "_", but at least our ladles and other tourney's should remain mostly unblemished by her presence.

ONE MORE THING:

I wanted to say Thank You to Concord, not just for being smart enough to figure this out but to put him self as well as his teams reputation out on the line to let the community know what happened. You and I have been worded toward eachother in the past but, i have a lot of respect for you for bringing this to everyones attention. So, thank you.
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by dinobro »

Again, there are rules to enforce punishments for players, you just want to ignore the rules and ban Vogue from everything semi-competitive in this game for simply breaking a rule of a specific tournament.
So because she broke the rule you want to ignore rules yourself to punish her in a way that is waaaay out of proportion? Sure, fight breaking rules by ignoring rules yourself. That will get you far ;)
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by Snxpflash »

[quote="dinobro"][/quote]

Not sure who you are or if you even play competitive fortress? Rules are merely guidelines to keep things orderly and manageable. The severity of everyones opinions are not because she "broke the rules" it's because the 'rules' do not apply to liz in her head. We all know that applying said rules will only add fuel to the fire raging within her trolling self. IF we all thought a 'warning system' or 'brief banning' ect ect would help, that is what we'd suggest.. but notice the actual suggestions Dino.. People would be content to not feel her presence on any fortress or sumo grid for the next year+. So Dino.. please dont sit her and be a Patrol Officer who tickets people for doing 73mph in a 65mph zone.. this chick is doing 165mph in a 25mph zone.. she needs her license revoked for a while..
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takburger
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by takburger »

you all talk too much about this. Just stop talking about her and hope all clan leaders will take their responsibilities and not let her play with them.
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Pr3
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by Pr3 »

If there are penalties / warnings in place then we must follow the procedure.
Hoax wrote:
On a more serious note that warning & penalties page looks so over complicated & im guessing ineffective, at least this might be an opportunity to bring up simplifying the ladle...
I agree with Hoax. It might be a good time to write up a proposal to simplify/alter the current penalties and warnings for future ladles.
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by jofish »

Okay, I usually don't post on the forums. I like to just lurk, and read the posts. However, the behavior displayed by Liz and Mister was simply too deplorable to ignore.

Since there is no reason to doubt that Liz was indeed playing under the alias of [abc]Vein, I'll cut right to the chase:

If we are to go by ladle rules, it is my belief that Liz should only receive a warning. In the "Warnings and Penalties" section of the "Ladle/Operations" page on the wiki, it states:
If a player is convicted of committing an offense, then all active warnings will stay active for an additional 2 Ladles. Otherwise if a warning has expired, then it can be rescinded.
If I understand correctly, this will be Liz's first warning, as she has not received one in the past two ladles, and is not in the "penalty box". As it states on the same page, there is a minimum of three warnings required for a ladle suspension to be enacted. By this logic, Liz, and Mister, will both receive no punishment for their actions, and their only penalty will be a measly warning.


Bar a gross misinterpretation on my part, this is what should happen according to the rules. I know that we are all mad at Liz, and some of us want to see her permanently banned. Unfortunately, the rules state that there should be next to no punishment.

Despite this, I do not believe that going by the rules would be the best course of action. Liz is one of the most well known Tronners for many reasons. She is a very talented player. She has been a member of a number of quality teams. She has won many ladles. But there are many players who possess great skill, and have been on the roster of many ladle winning teams. Lots of these players do not have the "fame" that Liz has garnered. This is because Liz is a "drama queen". She has been involved in numerous Tron-related scandals, and is seen by most of the community as a troublemaker, whose favorite activity is creating petty arguments, and inciting arguments.

The point is, Liz has done things like this before, and is not afraid to break the rules again. A few weeks ago, she was banned from Pickup for two months due to her abhorrent behavior towards certain members. Clearly, her pickup suspension has failed to dissuade her from breaking the rules, As evidenced her immediate admittance, and quotes like these:
Vogue wrote: No, I'm pretty sure I made it clear in my post that nobody gives a **** about Accel vs Sh. Can you read?
Liz simply does not care that she broke the rules, and is not going to change her ways, unless there is a serious response.

In my opinion, a year-long suspension from all competitive tron (Ladle, Bowl, SBT, etc.), and even pickup (if Epsy agrees), is in order. However, it is not my place to lay down the law, this is simply a suggestion.

As for Mister, there is no doubt that what he did was immoral, and broke official Ladle rules. To claim that Mister was dumb enough to think that Liz did not already play is foolhardy. We all know that Mister is smart, he applied, and was accepted into at least one Ivy league school. Mister also displays the same disregard for the rules as Liz, as evidenced here:
misterplayer wrote:Call 911
This is Mister's first offense, he does not usually act like this, and is generally well liked by a majority of the community. Due to this, I believe Mister should be reprimanded, but not nearly as severely as Liz should be. I suggest a 2-3 Ladle ban, and a 2 month ban from pickup (if Epsy agrees). As for ABC, it was one of their own members who came out and provided the evidence that Liz was playing as [abc]Vein. I think we can all agree that the clan as a whole deserves no punishment. I would encourage ABC leadership to reprimand Mister, but that is their decision not mine. Once again, this is merely a suggestion.

It is sad that things like this happen. Some people are just immature, and don't know the full consequences of their actions. They have almost no concept of how the real world works. Hopefully, taking disciplinary action will discourage players like this from breaking rules again, and help them mature, as players, and as people.

EDIT: Fixed spelling/syntax/word choice
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Magi
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by Magi »

So I don't know whether or not to believe anything I hear from mister since this morning in Empha's Sumo bar he told everyone in the server that "Liz played as Vein" but that he didn't know it was Liz until she was already asking for the invite. Then he supposedly got a text message from his brother Vein who said Liz was going to play under his name? If I remember correctly that's how mister told his story this morning. So it's interesting how 12 hours ago Vein was the one who coordinated this entire thing with liz and mr was completely innocent. Now mr says vein has nothing to do with it and it's all mister's doing. Which honestly, mister being the one involved here over vein sounds more realistic. I agree with Over that Mister should be banned one - three months from ladle. I'm pretty sure everyone in the game has known Liz was with Acceleration for a month now, so he has no excuse from letting her play. Not to mention lying to his teammates, why would he do that normally? Other than to try to hide something important like this. Certainly this team had more subs it could use, with delic and quantic in spectator for quite some time, and then Durka and Xyron playing in the finals. Really don't think they needed Liz to sub.

As for Liz, since there is no real way of banning these days with being able to change your IP on a whim, the easiest thing to do would be to have everyone acknowledge that she is banned from ladle. Any team that decides to have her play on their team will be disqualified from that ladle and potentially be disallowed to play from the next ladle, depending on what the circumstances are. It's harder to ban one person from playing, but when other people start not being able to play because of her, she'll soon lose the ability to find a team that is willing to let her join them.
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sinewav
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by sinewav »

The penalty section is good, it just needs a simplified overview. I'll try and write one up. Basically, PM's go to both Team Leaders and Server Owners asking, based on whatever evidence is available, if some person(s) is deserving of punishment. Note: this system is for both written rules and those gray areas where rules are unclear. If the TL/SO decides yes someone is deserving of punishment, they should respond with how severe the punishment should be based on a scale from 1-3. After all warnings are totaled the punishment is handed out. It can be light (verbally saying "don't do it again") or heavy (Ladle ban for a few months).

TL;DR: If guilty, how much punishment (light, medium, heavy)?
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theo
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by theo »

Unless I missed something, there is no heavy punishment.

What's the worst sanction? 3 warnings = one ladle ban. It's not really an appropriate response for a repeated offender.
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theo
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by theo »

Also I forgot one thing.


Some people mentioned proxies.

Whiles proxies work for things like WWW or IRC, it's not really usable for tron. The first reason is that you would need to use a UDP tunnel to your proxy. It's not a common need (people usually use a TCP tunnel). Also think about the ping.

People always complain about the ping. What if you ping was multiplied by 2? I don't think you would be happy. Unless your tunnel is really close to you (or to the server you want to play in) it can make a substantial difference.

But it doesn't prevent trolling.

Of course proxy is not the only answer. It would be easy (well easier) to use another Internet connexion.
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by blondie »

a black cat has voted and decided to remove Mister and Vein from our team, effective immediately.
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Re: Ladle 83

Post by misterplayer »

blondie wrote:a black cat has voted and decided to remove Mister and Vein from our team, effective immediately.

Aw, cut me to the chase :D
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