Ladle 41

[syllabear]

One suggestion I have of doing it will take a little extra work, but here it is anyway. It works with the presumed 18 teams:

First of all, the seeded teams are removed from the final list of teams, and that list is randomised. The first 4 are taken and paired together (1v2 and 3v4). They will play each other in the first round (at 18:00GMT). These pairings are given arbitary names (match 1 and match 2 for example) and are inputted into the 16 calculator, and as a result, we fill in the 16 bracket first, and simply work backwards from where match 1 and match 2 are put to find out where the original 4 are placed in the brackets.

[Desolate]

.randomteam with 18 teams sets the seeds with byes the first round, obviously. The 2 extra teams are placed directly underneath the 1st seed, so the winner plays the 1st seed in the next round.

Code: Select all

[10:41] <ct|kyle> .randomteam 4 cta oracle unk spt1 una youindangergirl taof pru tu id R mdm coolbeans spt2 stillalive ds tx ctb unk.team
[10:41] <tronner> ct|kyle: http://crazy-tronners.com/kyle/random/rand110102154221.txt  cta, ~bye~13, tx, ctb, spt2, ~bye~5, ~bye~6, tu, unk.team, ~bye~9, ~bye~2, taof, R, ~bye~1, ~bye~10, spt1, unk, ~bye~11, stillalive, coolbeans, ds, ~bye~3, ~bye~8, una, pru, ~bye~7, ~bye~4, youindangergirl, mdm, id, ~bye~12, oracle
[10:41] <ct|kyle> there :P
[10:41] <Deso_> the 2 extra teams won't always be playing a seed?
[10:41] <ct|kyle> seeds will go into the next round
[10:41] <Deso_> is that random?
[10:42] <ct|kyle> seeds have bye first round
[10:42] <Deso_> .randomteam 4 cta oracle unk spt1 una youindangergirl taof pru tu id R mdm coolbeans spt2 stillalive ds tx ctb unk.team
[10:42] <tronner> Deso_: http://crazy-tronners.com/kyle/random/rand110102154305.txt  cta, ~bye~13, coolbeans, taof, id, ~bye~5, ~bye~6, mdm, ds, ~bye~9, ~bye~2, tx, tu, ~bye~1, ~bye~10, spt1, unk, ~bye~11, unk.team, pru, ctb, ~bye~3, ~bye~8, spt2, stillalive, ~bye~7, ~bye~4, una, R, youindangergirl, ~bye~12, oracle
[10:42] <Deso_> yeah, but the two extra teams seem to be playing a match, then the winner goes onto play the 1st seed
[10:42] <ct|kyle> ya probaboly
[10:44] <Deso_> .randomteam 4 cta oracle unk spt1 una youindangergirl taof pru tu id R mdm coolbeans spt2 stillalive ds tx ctb unk.team
[10:44] <tronner> Deso_: http://crazy-tronners.com/kyle/random/rand110102154526.txt  cta, ~bye~13, ds, pru, ctb, ~bye~5, ~bye~6, tx, mdm, ~bye~9, ~bye~2, tu, R, ~bye~1, ~bye~10, spt1, unk, ~bye~11, unk.team, una, id, ~bye~3, ~bye~8, coolbeans, spt2, ~bye~7, ~bye~4, taof, youindangergirl, stillalive, ~bye~12, oracle

[sinewav]

Good work, thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll try to document what goes on here for next time so there is less confusion (from me, being the only confused one).

[Concord]

I think it's prudent to place the T.A.O.F. team in one of the play-in games and I would highly recommend we do so unless the captain of that team reveals himself.
An unresponsive captain, an invalid GID and team full of aliases are certainly reason enough.

[sinewav]

That means we have to break randomization. We might as well just leave them off. And by doing so we set a good precedent IMO. If the team captain decides to show up, their team can simply follow the rules for late sign-ups.

[owned]

One suggestion I have of doing it will take a little extra work, but here it is anyway. It works with the presumed 18 teams:

First of all, the seeded teams are removed from the final list of teams, and that list is randomised. The first 4 are taken and paired together (1v2 and 3v4). They will play each other in the first round (at 18:00GMT). These pairings are given arbitary names (match 1 and match 2 for example) and are inputted into the 16 calculator, and as a result, we fill in the 16 bracket first, and simply work backwards from where match 1 and match 2 are put to find out where the original 4 are placed in the brackets.

Sounds like a very interesting idea, and a very simple solution to our problem.

Also, I went ahead and added the servers to get a jump on things.

Wouldn't it be a little better if the servers flowed? It's kinda annoying to go jumping around server to server.

[INW]

Do I have permission to replace ani's #2 with my server, or do we need a good 6v6 testing on its stability beforehand?

[Titanoboa]

What's the problem anyway?

Some of the 4 random teams that get to play a seeded team each (this is a good thing, isn't it?*), are given a warmup match before.
If I were to face a seeded team, I'd want to have a match vs an unseeded team before I take the seeded team on. Is that really just me?

*If I sign up to a competitive tournament I'll expect to face merited opponents, and being privileged to play them early on should be a good thing, no?

Like I totally understand that everyone wants to win the tournament or get a seed. But trying to create loopholes to put off facing the best teams, just to reach higher results, isn't really a reason to change the system. Is it?


Side note: It might not be a good idea to use Rogue server for finals. You're certainly free to do so, but I can't guarantee any quality. Rogue (kansas) should drop off after quarters imo. Can be backup for semis. Now that that's said, the rest is all up to you.

[kyle]

as a side not server placement is really messed up, We've tried this way before, if servers do not flow (as in only 1 team changing servers, it can create huge delays for the entire event.

[INW]

Shall we try and redo the brackets today to make them flow better? I mean; just talking about it isn't doing anything lol

[dariv]

What's the problem anyway?

Some of the 4 random teams that get to play a seeded team each (this is a good thing, isn't it?*), are given a warmup match before.
If I were to face a seeded team, I'd want to have a match vs an unseeded team before I take the seeded team on. Is that really just me?

*If I sign up to a competitive tournament I'll expect to face merited opponents, and being privileged to play them early on should be a good thing, no?

Like I totally understand that everyone wants to win the tournament or get a seed. But trying to create loopholes to put off facing the best teams, just to reach higher results, isn't really a reason to change the system. Is it?

But it shouldn't come down to whether it's a good thing for the team or not. Either way, it's unfair on somebody.

There should be effectively two, independent randomisations: 1) who of the non-seeds gets the byes, and 2) who of the non-seeds to reach the 2nd round must play the seeds. Why do I think they should be random? Because they are different problems:

1) byes: because the tournament has a number of teams which is not 2^n,
2) seeds: the problem that the two best teams might meet in the first round.

The only way to make it fair is to randomise both independently, which I think is achieved with Syllabear's suggestion.

[Desolate]

Dariv you're not making sense. Every team is still completely randomised other than the four seeds. The Team 15 vs. Team 18 and Team 16 vs. Team 17 matches are not based on the order of sign-ups, those are just placed to show where the extra matches would be played based on the .randomteam script.

[syllabear]

my suggestion was posted in the case where .randomteam did not work, or does not produce a desired result, which was found not to be the case.

We should simply use .randomteam with kyle and someone else who understands it (deso, sine.wav, etc.) and if the result is not accepted by the general tron population, feel free to use my method.

Either way, we need to sort out what happens in the case of 17+ teams, since this is likely to be more of an occurance this year.

[Titanoboa]

The script works fine for both 12-16 teams (where seeded teams get byes before the unseeded ones) and for 17-20 (where some unseeded teams play earlier than the rest and then face seeded teams). We just aren't used to the latter yet, so the current confusion is acceptable.

And obviously, it works for 21+ teams too. If I remember correctly, it's made to work with up to 64 teams as of yet.

[dariv]

Dariv you're not making sense. Every team is still completely randomised other than the four seeds. The Team 15 vs. Team 18 and Team 16 vs. Team 17 matches are not based on the order of sign-ups, those are just placed to show where the extra matches would be played based on the .randomteam script.

Sorry if I didn't clarify; I was confused in my first post, not knowing the way things are done I assumed "team 16" referred to the 16th team to sign up as it appears on the board. But then someone explained to me my error. My second post was made with this in mind and I think it is still legtimate.

To put it simply: why should someone, who has already had the misfortune of not getting a bye, automatically be set up against a seed in the second round?