Experimental change: finite cycle width

For things that have to do with those crazy test servers... and yeah. By request of z-man, and, of course, you gotta obey...

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Keep it or dump it on Bugfarm Fortress?

Poll ended at Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:05 pm

Keep! I love it!
8
21%
Dump! I hate it!
23
59%
I don't mind. What is this turmoil about?
8
21%
 
Total votes: 39

Gusbo
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Post by Gusbo »

Just been in, tried the new settings, instantly disliked it. After reading the posts here, I've come to see a lot of people having problems with different styles of play, particularly double grinding and centre attacks which seems to have led to this change. I find these to be useful weapons when used right, although I admit that two wings double grinding does cause a hell of a problem for the centre, which often leaves them with one option - the centre attack. Mostly tho, if the players outside break early enough then the double grinder can get out in time, it's all about communication really. Also, defenders have been forced into developing tactics to combat centre attacks which have proven effective most of the time, so losing this element of the game is a bit of a waste in my opinion (it's only a cheap victory if the def doesn't know what to do!). The change has also made the perimeter wall pretty much off limits. Sneaking round the side is now pretty much impossible if one defender goes to the wall on the break, and again I feel that this is a waste.

All in all, I think it's much better if players can figure out strategies to deal with styles they have problems with rather than eliminating them from the game altogether.
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Phytotron
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Post by Phytotron »

Well, of course it was the other way around, kenny boy. You and your buddy came in with the purpose of starting trouble. Not simple banter in the course of legitimate gameplay, but solely to start trouble. You admitted as much, so you got a temporary dismissal. That's the way it goes. Not quite as superficial as kicks from certain "no cussing" servers for saying "oh shit."

Van, I initially commented because I've long been a proponent of cycle width. As I stated, the specific game mode is irrelevant. And by the way, if and when cycle width is implemented as a server setting option, do you think it will be exclusive to fortress servers? Well, of course not. What happens in that test server can affect the future of the game, irrespective of specific game mode.

As for "DG," isn't it obvious that I find such a move objectionable? I believe I stated as much (albeit without the use of your preferred made-up terminology). So, naturally, I would approve if something prevented it, and again, regardless of the game mode.

As for noting that Shrunkland and Bugfarm differ in the matter of 1 rubber value, well, you see, that's not entirely accurate. There's a whole lot more to the rubber code and its settings than just basic CYCLE_RUBBER. There is also, for instance, CYCLE_RUBBER_DELAY. This setting also differs between the two servers (and all others, from what I've seen). Its effect is significant, far more than just a difference of 1. Understand this, and you'll better understand my comments.

In the meantime, why, again, is it so wrong for me to express my opinion on an element of gameplay? This entire topic is you guys bickering and bitching over a gameplay element. You do it all the time over other stuff. But for some reason I'm out of line? What, just because I criticise some popular things that you lot consider conventional? Get off it.
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oO.k3nNy
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Post by oO.k3nNy »

Phytotron wrote:Well, of course it was the other way around, kenny boy. You and your buddy came in with the purpose of starting trouble. Not simple banter in the course of legitimate gameplay, but solely to start trouble. You admitted as much, so you got a temporary dismissal. That's the way it goes. Not quite as superficial as kicks from certain "no cussing" servers for saying "oh shit."
lol? you want to say that the greeting after i came in wasnt likely: oh no some stupid sp, following some other likely same statements. So i asked what your problem was? few sec later it became clear that you were admin because suddenly the message appeared: "Admin: sp you are not allowed to grind walls" :lol: ?!? because these actions were more than childlike van and i started guessing whats your age, so i guessed you were 12, van guessed 11 :) few sec later it said "you are not wanted here" and we both got banned.
so plz dont turn things around and act like you are the innocent "little" boy.
(in fact you were upset by vans and mine post that you've got no comparison to fortresses and you were talking about rubber servers; oh and it was random that van and i both got on that server of you).
sleep well :D
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Phytotron
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Post by Phytotron »

Wow, you're just making stuff up. Good job. Now, if you please, take your little games elsewhere. I'm sure you can find plenty of other clan kids who would be more than happy to oblige. I'm not interested. Allow this thread to get back on topic.
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Post by Goodygumdrops »

I joined the forums just to vote no...I like playing defense and I like defending against center attacks. That is all.
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Well, Gusbo, in my earlier post about me seeing situations where double-grinding is good it was you I had in mind. :) At this moment in time, you are probably the only double-grinder I like having next to me, the rest I could kill in a heartbeat if they got out of line (ingame, of course, ingame). I think you know why, but for the benefit of everyone else here, I'll go into a little detail.

Gus doesn't go out real far, in fact he's turning back almost immediately. So I go in as tight as I can and still reasonably expect gus to come out alive, sometimes I accidentally cut too tight. I don't know what he does, but he shoots out of that thing like a bullet, unlike most of the doublegrinders I see. What he does next is what matters. See, at this point most doublegrinders kill themselves and give the other team 2 points in the process.

Gus cuts left (we're on the left side) like he's supposed to, if there's an opportunity he takes it. Otherwise he keeps going. There's usually an opportunity. He doesn't go for the kill, though. Instead he cuts right with me on his wall following him in, come what may. He leaves long straight lines for me to grind, eventually I catch up to him in fact. It's usually a tad short of the zone, too. Then he cuts right again and heads to the other team's little collection of walls there. This has the effect of sealing up the other team's right side. But again, he doesn't go for the kill (well, sometimes he does, that is true, but it's not part of the attack). Then he turns towards the zone. I've matched him almost exactly in turns at this point and we both come on the zone at pretty high speed, chances are one of us gets in. If not, there's a hole and one of us usually still gets in. If not, there is no defense besides the goalie to worry about, here's why.

Our right side has seen us rushing, and either intentionally or not have broken early, more often than not. (When the other team really sucks, the right side attacks too) The entire right side deploys as defense, and a second wave of attackers gets ready to go when the middle clears up. By then gus and I are either dead or have taken the zone, chances are the goalie's dead no matter what. In any case, the other team's left side sees a chance for a quick rush, but instead encounters 3-4 guys in a prepared position, which is suicide for the attackers.

The other things he does that are important are prety simple. He leaves room for me. He knows when I turn one way that I'm going to watch his back and he's to attack on his own. He knows when to turn his way and watch my back and I'm to attack on my own. And when we get to the zone, if a straight up rush into it isn't possible, he immediately goes back towards the center and lets me around him to get to the other side of the zone, and we start laying on pressure, usually pretty fierce because the goalie hasn't had time to completely setup. We usually claim 1/4 of the zone immediately, and soon after whittle him down to where we can turn it over. Standard wingman attack approach at a pretty high speed.

Show me 2 other doublegrinders who can do that. Just 2, that's all I ask. Zop's not one of them, he kills his wingman. Same with the Formerly Elite crowd. Psyko, heh heh, doesn't kill his wingman, but he goes for the kill too early, which breaks up the wingman attack (whether he lives or dies). Most of the other doublegrinders that come to mind just kill themselves.

This attack isn't an attack made possible by doublegrinding specifically. It's a pretty standard attack made with the center and right of center and goes back as long as I've been playing fortress. The only thing doublegrinding has to do with it is that it switches this attack to the left side and lets you make it from the left side. Previously you could only rush from the right, and the other team's left setup defensively to counter it. Now you can rush from both sides. That's all.

Finally, I've noticed people getting lazy about their seals. They figure they don't have to really grind their seals anymore. 0.1 grid units isn't very much in width, I'm beating grinds all day long now. Thanks guys. :)
Last edited by Lucifer on Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Van-hayes
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Post by Van-hayes »

Um, I went to shrunkland to see what it is like seeing as the only other time I went there it was just me and some bots, I got in, kenny said something, can't really remember it, someone called him a white boy, I said I was white, more talk I didnt really follow then kenny asked me how old I thought this guy was, he said 12, I said 11 cause 12 is usually when people hit puberty, then the admin said I was obviously there to start trouble and then got kicked. Don't know if I got banned cause I didnt feel like going back. O ya this all took place in less than 5 minutes.I think thats about it.

As for the Experimental change I found that with just playing for a few hours, you get used to the change and forget to notice it, you can do everything the same it just takes more team work and better timing. If the change doesnt become permanent than there is still that teamwork and timing you gained from it.
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Post by dlh »

I don't like double-grinders, and I usually try to out-grind them at the beginning of rounds to show that you can get close to walls without using a noob-tatic. However I also use the “center attack”. I can make it down the center most of the time — just by using a pure-grind (gasp).

I played a few rounds with the setting change, but there were not enough people to do the center attack. I got squeeze killed once, and I got one or two who tried to tunnel but were squeeze killed. I find the setting in fortress tolerable.
PsYkO wrote:Double grinding and going down middle are 2 out of the 5 big strategies in Fortress. If you were to include outgrinding [sic] other people which it does distract from that you can say 3 out of the 5 biggest strategies are taken out.
No, now you will have to learn new tactics besides: double-grinding at start, double-grinding down the center, boasting.
PsYkO wrote:K I was told the idea of the change by omega and hated it then, now I just went in and tried it and I everything I learned to get more skilled from the past 2 months are completely lost.
Double-grinding is not a skill.
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Post by wrtlprnft »

Van-hayes wrote:As for the Experimental change I found that with just playing for a few hours, you get used to the change and forget to notice it, you can do everything the same it just takes more team work and better timing. If the change doesnt become permanent than there is still that teamwork and timing you gained from it.
Z-man, I'd suggest you reset that poll, it was way do early. I think there will be a more positve response from people that got used to it ;)
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Not Really That Bad

Post by DDMJ »

With this new experiment running I have given up on trying to cut through their center and out grinding opponents. It is still possible to double grind. Just tell the person next to you to just graze the center and not to grind him. It works just as well. The only really annoying thing is when THE GOALIE GRINDS THE BACKWALL!!!. You used to be able to outgrind him and get him off the wall, but now its impossible if the goalie is remotely good. This is extremely annoying especially when it's 1 vs. 1. The round could take a really long time and no one wants to go for the instant winzone. On the other hand, if your playing defense, this experiment is a jem. It is much harder to enemies to get in and if they do, it's easy to "squeeze" them. This experiment is not really that bad. I've grown to it for the past day, but still would like it removed. I like defending against center attacks and I like attacking through the center. It tests how good the goalie really is. Maybe you should make the width even skinnier, enough so going thru the center is possible and moving the goalie away from the back wall. The only limitation it should have is for the people (I do this sometimes) that keep grinding against the back wall again and again until they see an opening in the defense and since they have extreme speed (about 60) from grinding against themselves and the wall) they shoot thru the gap really fast and severely weaken the defense. Maybe decreasing it from 0.1 grid lengths to 0.05 or something like that would make people happier. Thanks.
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Post by Lucifer »

I forgot to point out that the reason the attack with gus works isn't because he's doublegrinding. :) It's because he has balls, plays decisively, and plays for the win. Take doublegrinding out of the mix and he and I will still find ways to storm the defense. When you look at what it takes to make doublegrinding work, you find what it takes to win regardless of odds, who has which tactical advantage, and so forth.

And people are getting even lazier about sealing their boxes, take advantage of it while it lasts! Had a nice fight with 40 (even though it resulted in him erroneously declared pwned when anybody watching could clearly see I twitched, and he was nowhere near me, and I wasn't sealed, I was in fact sealing him when I twitched, with my wall surrounding him). In that nice fight he kept lazily sealing agianst the rim wall and I had my way with his grind. I'm not a great grinder, I'm arguably a good grinder sometimes, but not even that usually. If I'm outgrinding people left and right, it's because they're being lazy, either they were lazy grinders before when they sealed and it's only now becoming obvious, or they've become lazy grinders thinking a tight grind isn't needed anymore. If the cycle is 0.1 units wide, you still need to put your sealing wall closer than 0.1 units, and if you don't see sparks, it ain't happening (unless you've got sparks turned off, that's your problem then).
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Z-Man
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Post by Z-Man »

/me pretends this all was just a clever plan to get you people on this forum.

Van, Phytotron, Kenny: This is not the place for "I'm glad I got banned from this shitty server" discussion. Treads get locked for it.

Lucifer: Hmm, perhaps really using sparks as an indication of a tight seal would be a good idea. Transfer the cycle width to the client, and let the client, should it have support, visualize good sealing with sparks, maybe visualize good seals by rendering thicker walls, visualize the cycle width by actually giving the model that width :)

The team color change is a completely unrelated bug.
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Post by omega »

i think if the rubber law hadnt been introduced (where it is shorter) this wud have been an excellent rule, as that and this helps defenders out loads. This just tips the game to far in the defenders favour. But its tru 1 server with the chnage-zmans spoon cud be renamed bugfarm, with width and cvs stays how it was.

On the subject of centers, today there will ppl shuffling away from centre cos they were just getting instantly killed. Every roun d there was a new centre.

Anyways i like thje colour change bug makes it more interesting and tests if the player is 'awake'
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Post by Lucifer »

Speaking of rubber and cycle width, I couldn't help but notice that no rubber is applied when the space is too small. This is kinda counter-intuitive. If you're hitting the wall because your cycle is too fat to fit through, seems like regular rubber should apply.

Also, it would be neat if we could eventually have an effect where the cycle gets squeezed when it goes into a tunnel, a visual effect, like what you see in a cartoon when a character tries to squeeze through a hole that's too small for him.

On the subject of centers: how is that different from every other day?

Also, Omega, time zone differences being what they are, it could be the weekend or longer before we see each other to meet that challenge. And I'm playing under an unknown pseudonym right now, so don't be surprised if I come up and say "Hey, I kicked his ass" and you don't actually know it. :) (no, I'm not interested in switching back to my regular name yet, but I will eventually, I like it most, after all)
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Post by Z-Man »

Right on the rubber thing, although a possible logic for missing rubber is that you're entering the gap because your inertia pushes you in, then you get squeezed. I'll try to think of something, but to be really useful, it has to be active clientside, to. Of course, that calls an extended test period later when clients that support it are out :twisted:

I'm considering adding a permanent, day-by-day, settings rotation so you get used to changes.

Spoon settings are not negotiable at this time.
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