To Durf (open letter, if you will)

[Olive]

it's been a while since i dissected a post, but under the delicious comfort of a bottle of Sangiovese I'll give it a go.

but that isn't even violating privacy; that is evidence to a claim I've made against you.

sometimes, incriminating evidence cannot be used because its obtained in an unrighteous manner or because it violates certain principles. To me, the privacy of our moderators is more important than the remote possibility you have been unjustly banned for spamming your gobbledygook.

but this isn't the point z-man is trying to make, this is my interpretation;

the grudge you hold against the moderating team blind-sights you from the fact that Z-mans proposition is actually very noble. You have been attacking the moderating team in every possible matter, dragging many threads off-topic for the sole purpose of discomforting them. Z-man is offering you a chance to "redeem" yourself and overcome this virtuous cycle of drama you have been dragging everyone into. The conditions safeguard you from emotional responses from the community and allow the community to objectively analyse the case before the inevitable diarrhea of epic proportions is unleashed over the thread. Considering the fact that the moderating team has absolutely no obligation whatsoever to answer your cries, I find the conditions more than reasonable.

you paraphrased the following a gazillion times

you are unreasonable and refuse to actually justify my ban(s)

to me, your bans are justified 100% by the sole fact you are upsetting numerous people for no apparent reason. It's not uncommon for moderators to give time-outs to keep discussions from heating and trailing. Your GID still works, right? In all seriousness, what is the problem here? Is it a matter of principles? Is there a deeper, transcendental issue I'm overlooking? If you hate these forums so much, why don't you just leave? If you wish to stay, can't you man-up and get over it?

If you want to try and show how I've been insulting to you, I will gladly PROVE to everyone that what I say isn't insult, but fact. When I say things like "you disgrace yourself", it's because you do; when I show you disrespect, it's because you're not a respectable person

this statement is self-contradictory and proves writing this post is essentially a waste of my time, but damn this Sangiovese is good so no worries.

I will hit the submit button with reluctance, as it only adds to the nonsensical. Yet, I wish to show my support to the moderating team. My apologies to the community, I could not restrain myself.

[Gonzap]

At this point I honestly don't give a single fu.ck about what happened. Stop ruining the atmosphere in the forums durf and drop the fu.cking topic already. Lucifer, penis jokes ain't funny, behave like an adult.

Could you all just shut the fu.ck up and move on?

[Z-Man]

Expose me. Or, alternatively, stop pestering us.

Post it all in full, or shut up. Or I'll cut things short, spare everyone a book worth of your nonsense and just quote you on the most important bits. I'll post the whole thing only if you agree on the 96 hour mutual silence afterwards. Because it's going to be a big pile of stupid work. And I'm not afraid, I just want to spare everyone of your nonsense as much as I possibly can.

[compguygene]

@Durf: I think that you should consider posting the PM's in the manner the Z-man has requested with the 96 hour wait time to let the community comment without comment from you or the moderators. If you do it that way, you will be the one to release the information, and you will be giving the community a chance to weigh in on this matter. The mods here are agreeing to let the PM's be out there with the sole condition of them standing on their own for 96 hours without comment on your's or their part. What I am saying is simple. It is in your best interest to do it this way. There are many of us, like myself, that have been sitting on the sidelines of this mess, simply because we all think that it's all a bunch of crap.
Now, by abiding by the simple request of the mod's, which restrains them as much as it restrains you, we, the community, get to weigh in on what is there and on the thing as a whole.
So, if the mods are in the wrong, we will call them on it.
If you are in the wrong, we will call you on it.
If, as I suspect, everybody is wrong, we will call you all on it.
We need to move past this in the right way.
Many of us would like to see you and others contribute to the core game code in ways that we know you that can, or at least learn to. It starts with us all getting along and playing together nice in the sandbox.
TLDR: Please post the pm's, without comment, and let the community comment on it for 96 hours, the mods will do the same. Best for us, best for you, best for the game we all actually care about.

[Durf]

People seem to be misunderstanding what's going on around here:
- there is currently an unresolved dispute regarding past events (my ban); of which is slowly being "dealt with"...we'll see how that eventually goes.
- I never at any point spammed the forums or have done anything in retaliation towards the moderators for their unjust ban (note: being disputed)
- the reason why the moderators should address the dispute at all is to show to everyone that there wasn't a case of moderator abuse (as it stands, they can't disprove the abuse)

SO, when discussing NEW topics like Lucifer RECENT questionable activity (which was shortly followed by abuse), I did nothing to bring up the old dispute other than to show the pattern of behavior (avoiding the issue - trying to justify a simple mistake; after all "you're not paragons of virtue"). I'm well aware of the status of that dispute (should be forgotten by the forum users by now). Z-Man was the one to bring up the posting of the PM history in the first place.
So, Z-Man, how exactly are you sparing everyone again?
And I'll say this again: If you have nothing to worry about, then you have nothing to worry about; no conditions necessary.



@GonZap: that topic has been dropped; the issue is Lucifer most recent case of abuse (and now [again] Z-Man stepping in to try to justify it). I specifically mentioned when something was "another conversation entirely" as a means of leaving that topic "dropped" for the sake of these threads. I don't appreciate people continually getting the wrong idea just because I raise a valid concern (even you think Lucifer should behave "like an adult"; but have you seen his actual moderator abuse? More than just a questionable post at this point; he is giving everyone reasons to be concerned for themselves should they have a different opinion. That kind of oppression should not be allowed).



@Olive:

it's been a while since i dissected a post, but under the delicious comfort of a bottle of Sangiovese I'll give it a go.

but that isn't even violating privacy; that is evidence to a claim I've made against you.

sometimes, incriminating evidence cannot be used because its obtained in an unrighteous manner or because it violates certain principles. To me, the privacy of our moderators is more important than the remote possibility you have been unjustly banned for spamming your gobbledygook.

Did you even read the first half of the sentence you're quoting? (lol) There is literally nothing revealing about Z-Man that would be in violation of the privacy that he (and everyone) deserves; OTHER THAN if he so chooses to hide his unreasonable behavior from the public by refusing to admit to his words in the PMs between him and myself (only if he chooses to hide something, would it be violating his "privacy" for me to post it without his consent). Again, there is nothing personally revealing or otherwise in violation of his privacy.
Besides how you don't even know what you're defending, you seem to be unaware of the reasons for my ban(s). If you're implying that I was the person who spammed the forums (gobbledygook?), then you're just as bad as an abusive moderator; you have no idea how wrong you are. If you're implying that my verbose posts are "spam", then you're only making an attempt to devalue my post (it would be like me saying, "you're drunk so nothing you say right now matters" which simply isn't fair for you - so I give you the respect of explaining exactly how you are mistaken in a manner that isn't vulgar or otherwise "lashing out" at you). Frankly, just move on yourself; (to everyone that tells me to "move on" without even understanding what they're talking about) if you are sick of reading then don't read. You make the choice to enter the thread, and you make the choice to participate or not. Don't put the responsibility of your personal preference onto me.

but this isn't the point z-man is trying to make, this is my interpretation;

the grudge you hold against the moderating team blind-sights you from the fact that Z-mans proposition is actually very noble. You have been attacking the moderating team in every possible matter, dragging many threads off-topic for the sole purpose of discomforting them. Z-man is offering you a chance to "redeem" yourself and overcome this virtuous cycle of drama you have been dragging everyone into. The conditions safeguard you from emotional responses from the community and allow the community to objectively analyse the case before the inevitable diarrhea of epic proportions is unleashed over the thread. Considering the fact that the moderating team has absolutely no obligation whatsoever to answer your cries, I find the conditions more than reasonable.

You mistake a grudge for an ongoing dispute / recent events that aren't all that related to past events (other than the same base problem of moderator abuse). I harbor no grudge against them, which is exactly why I am able to ask for a dispute rather than to lash out at them.
Again, (for everyone) the recent discussions regarding Lucifer's questionable post and subsequent moderator abuse would have been brought up REGARDLESS of any past dealings (put simply, I calls em like I sees em). No amount of past history (or lack thereof) would change how I'm approaching this situation other than my previous exposure to their unruly behavior (which isn't bringing anything up from the past, but I have evidence I can show everyone to prove this behavior should they question that judgement).
So, this isn't an "attack", frankly if they feel it's an attack that would mean they actually have something to be concerned about (like the public actually finding out their true colors). Like I keep saying, if they have nothing to worry about, they have nothing to worry about (meaning no amount of ACTUAL attacks would have any real effect anyway - assuming they were fair and just moderators). Stop trying to label things like that onto me for raising a valid concern; I'm sure you wouldn't like to be abused by a moderator (I'm talking actual abuse - overstepping boundaries to negatively affect you in some way), so what would you do? If they completely failed to justify their actions, wouldn't they seem like bigoted and abusive moderators to you? Now if you saw this behavior continuing and you see it affect other users, would you just stand by and watch? No matter who it is, abuse isn't deserved and I will solve the problem before it affects more innocent users.

you paraphrased the following a gazillion times

you are unreasonable and refuse to actually justify my ban(s)

to me, your bans are justified 100% by the sole fact you are upsetting numerous people for no apparent reason. It's not uncommon for moderators to give time-outs to keep discussions from heating and trailing. Your GID still works, right? In all seriousness, what is the problem here? Is it a matter of principles? Is there a deeper, transcendental issue I'm overlooking? If you hate these forums so much, why don't you just leave? If you wish to stay, can't you man-up and get over it?

Yes, there is an issue you are overlooking. That issue is that the moderators don't want to be known as tyrants and/or abusive and/or unjust/unfair; that is the entire reason why they even bothered with the dispute in the first place. That being said, I was (and sort of still am) disputing that issue with them, and THEY are the ones to back out (first Lucifer, then Z-Man after taking that responsibility for him). Neither of them has shown they can be reasonable / they blatantly ignore evidence; backing out essentially is them labelling themselves as abusive moderators as they do not care if a user was mistreated or not (they'd rather try to justify a mistake than to admit to it).
Put simply, the issue you're overlooking is their own hypocrisy; they start something they can't finish.
As for my bans being justified: They currently are not (remember the ban reason was "being a sexist ass"). And no amount of me upsetting users (after the fact) will justify that ban reason. Furthermore, there is no reason for them to give me a "time-out" either, as I'm not the one stressing over this.
If you can seriously ask if I hate the forums, you don't know me well enough. To give you an idea, I had to ask Tank Program and Z-Man if they wanted me to leave the forums (if they said "yes", I would have left) because of the abuse I was getting (sure seems like their choice to ban me without valid reason to was a way of pressuring me to leave the forums). In short, no, I don't hate the forums and I'd do anything I can to help them (including making sure that not a single other user has to be subject to Lucifer's mistreatment ever again; sorry for giving a shit about you guys too).
Manning up and getting over it: is kind of a sexist thing to say - regardless, there isn't really anything for me to man up to. On the contrary, the moderators are the ones failing to admit to the abuse that everyone can see.

If you want to try and show how I've been insulting to you, I will gladly PROVE to everyone that what I say isn't insult, but fact. When I say things like "you disgrace yourself", it's because you do; when I show you disrespect, it's because you're not a respectable person

this statement is self-contradictory and proves writing this post is essentially a waste of my time, but damn this Sangiovese is good so no worries.

I will hit the submit button with reluctance, as it only adds to the nonsensical. Yet, I wish to show my support to the moderating team. My apologies to the community, I could not restrain myself.

You probably shouldn't have posted given your thoughts on all this...
If you're going to say something is self-contradictory, the least you can do is say how it is.
If you're talking about the respect thing, the answer is simple: respect is a two way street. You can't earn respect without being respectable in some way; and you can expect to receive any respect without showing some (for others AND YOURSELF). Respect has less to do with ego than you think (except for those obsessive cases), so it's not some sort of competition or "fight" in itself; it is merely addressing another person at a certain level of respect - the two way street. There is no emotion involved in adjusting the level of respect you show others unless you seem to have a personal problem with it (a problem with showing someone more respect than you think they deserve) and even not that's not always the case.

Overall, I think you (along with some other users) misunderstand the purpose of my recent posts.
(don't make the assumption that I'm bringing up old disputes just because Lucifer has RECENTLY abused his moderator status)



@comguygene: You are confused about what's going on. I was going to post the PMs anyway. This is what they felt was a "threat" as it contains incriminating evidence against them. In fact you will probably see this part of the discussion in the PMs, so you will be able to fully understand Z-Man's position on this.
The fact remains that there is absolutely nothing stopping me from posting it, and no conditions need to apply; that was the case before they even made the proposition. Making the proposition at all is a petty attempt to assert their authority in an unnecessary way (really, why would I comment or post within 96 hours anyway, think about it - what are they afraid of that they wish to silence me). Like I said, if they have nothing to worry about (if they're right) then they have nothing to worry about (no amount of calling them out on anything will work before they are right and that would be proven).
Let me put it another way: I shouldn't have to compromise on this anyway; yes it's a simple demand, but really they are trying to test their limits far too much.
Z-Man is a little bit of a sissy if you ask me; considering his position on posting the PM history this whole time, he should just get it over with; no conditions needed.




But I'll remind everyone again: the PM history has NOTHING to do with Lucifer's recent moderator abuse.
Regardless of any PM history or any past bans and disputes, this current issue would have still been brought up, and that's all I am trying to discuss as the other dispute is being dealt with by someone else (as in, why are you telling me to drop it when you're the ones who can't?).
Z-Man brought up the PM history as a means of trying to disprove my claims; that I was already subject to his unreasonable behavior, and also to defend his position as a competent "support person" because of how refusing to settle a dispute makes that look.

If any of you have a problem with that, take it up with Z-Man for bringing up the past in detail.
So again, my recent posting has nothing to do with the past, only has to do with recent events.
Funny how they manage to avoid the issue yet again.

[Lucifer]

Durf: I'vebeen here awhile. People know that iI'd love to be seen as a tyrant. I have no ego to bruise here.

Not that it should be necessary at this point, of course i will not comment in the thread the PMs are released in. I will also avoid moderating it. It would take someone like Word or Compguygene (eg none of Durfs fan club) asking me to step in, as well as a marked absence from Z-man.

For 96 hours. That's 4 days.

However, at Durfs first post before the deadline, I'll remove it and issue a ban for whatever time remains. No questionsasked.

[Durf]

First of all...I have a fan club?

And second... For what reason are you even imposing a 96 hour limit?
What are you afraid I'm going to post about?
Like I keep saying, Z-Man shouldn't have anything to worry about, meaning he can post it without restrictions.
Furthermore, if you choose to ban me, it will be abuse; are you sure you really want to do that again?

Z-Man says I'm "pestering" you both; that PM history was unrelated and technically wasn't going to be posted on these forums anytime soon.
So talk to Z-Man about why he brought it up; I was talking about your recent abusive behavior Lucifer.


As for "you loving to be seen as a tyrant": Isn't that admittance to abusive behavior?
You are aware of when you take moderator action and it being unnecessary is abusive...right?
Do you remember what happened throughout history to tyrants?
Or are you just testing your position?

Let me tell you, I don't care if the three of you (Tank, Z-Man, and yourself) are very good friends or not; if you do abuse your status, it is still abuse. If you mistreat a user unfairly, it is abuse. (In fact, being friends is what lessens all of your credibility - you blindly support each other's mistakes at too great a cost)
Now, you're happy with being known as a person that will treat others unfairly? Are you sure about that?


Lucifer, you shouldn't get involved with the PM history for any reason anyway; even to enforce the imposed conditions by someone who can't just deal with the original situation in the first place.
Don't abuse your status on me. You are not qualified to be a moderator (the reason that you permit yourself to be abusive is enough to discredit you). Sometimes people just aren't apt for the job, no matter how much they want it.

You say there's no ego to bruise; then step down as moderator for 1 week.
Show us your username in regular font settings and not moderator colors.
Be one of the users and literally prevent yourself from indulging in your abusive behavior (because you can't).
If you can do that for 1 week (or even a day), then you can prove to me (and everyone) that this isn't all just an ego trip to validate some self-entitled sense of superiority.

Otherwise, stop being abusive and learn what it means to be a moderator. So long as you give me reason to point out the flaws, I will point them out until they are fixed. Get over it; you can't ban me for it.

[Lucifer]

You're going to make ten thousand word posts and drown out anybody else who has something to say.

The 96 hour waiting period is to allow everyone besides you and all moderators an opportunity to speak their minds.

Its that, or Z-man cherry picks what to post.

What are YOU afraid of?

[Durf]

Lucifer, asking me what I'm afraid of is ignorant.
Did you forget that Z-Man was the first one that didn't want the PM history to get out?
The only reason I haven't posted it was out of respect for the situation (essentially giving him a chance to come clean himself).
There isn't anything I would post (drown people out with) that isn't already in the PMs; people can read that for themselves. Granted, I'm fairly certain that some users will choose to interpret a different meaning in my words occasionally, as has been done recently (olive); but that doesn't mean you need to impose conditions or limitations.
If you have nothing to fear, then post without conditions. Imposing conditions is showing your fear that I will have a chance to explain myself before people jump to too many conclusions (as you do - based on the hate they harbor within).


Z-Man would not cherry pick from the PM history; really he can go ahead, that will only make him look bad. So what are you trying to do by even mentioning it? Is that supposed to be a threat? He can go ahead and make things hilariously bad for himself, IDC about that.


And again, the length of my posts shouldn't be related / if you choose not to read it, then you accept the trait of being ignorant to what's going on.

All this being said, there aren't enough valid reasons for you to impose limitations on the PM history being posted.
Have you forgotten that these conditions are imaginary? I was going to post the PM history regardless of what either of you thought, and neither of you could do a thing about it since it violated no rules PLUS you like to say you don't hide behind PMs.

So quit pussyfooting around and DO IT ALREADY.
Conditions or not, if you moderators are right, that will be proven; so stop being a sissy and deal with what you started.

[Gonzap]

If you keep posting while people react to the PM's we won't get to anywhere, because you can't accept critics. You will repeat over and over again the same thing until everyone says "**** this you're right" just to stop reading about it. You explain yourself quite clearly so I'm pretty sure we won't misunderstand the PM's anyway. Stay out of this, imagine us as the court and you (Lucifer, Z-Man and you, Durf) as the ones on the bench. Every one of us will decide whether or not you're right, once that happens, accept the result and never post about this again.

[kyle]

Durf, for 2 months you have been bickering on these forums about the 1 -2 days that you were not. Your here now, They could have left you banned forever. It's their forums, They can run them the way they want, But why bother bringing this up for months. If you don't like the way they moderate their forms then why do you even want to be on them, bloating about they way the situation was handled. This has gone on for far too long just Drop it, or agree to their terms and post the PM's as mentioned.

You keep making yourself look bad by continuing to bring up that 1-2 day ban, If thats your goal, continue on.

Side note, we need a mod to disable new message notification, if the post was made by your foe, not saying that you are there yet, Durf, but you are right on the edge.

[Durf]

Gonzap pls... I get that; but why would I have the need to post anything? Think about it. Why would I post during the 96 hours unless there was actually a reason to? What reason could there possibly be? (I'm a reasonable person, you can ask me to refrain from posting and I will - but the thing is, if you go and make a stupid assumption and rally a bunch of people to follow in your erroneous way of thinking, I'm not about to agree to limiting myself from preventing that.)
Frankly, given how the community likes to make assumptions (explained in the latter half of this post), I don't see the purpose in even agreeing to conditions when I was about to share the PM history without conditions anyway (and Z-Man understood that).
The conditions are just a cry for some control over the situation - because they have none. They know that the PM history will be posted whether they like it or not - and they want to be able for you all to react to my lack of charisma and social etiquette; what they don't want is for you to realize how that doesn't matter in the end (they want you to be offended by me - my person - the individual, not what I did -- otherwise there isn't a need for the conditions as I wouldn't post if that wasn't happening)
Surely anyone with half a brain can see why it's better not to agree to something you may regret.
Considering that the PM history is going to be shared with everyone regardless, there is absolutely no reason for me to agree to any conditions; not one of you can force me no matter how bad you think it makes me look (if you're stupid enough to think that making a simple choice like this makes me look "bad", then you're just ignorant and basically not worth the time because you don't care enough to know what's actually going on).

Speaking of which - they know I don't use sock puppet accounts; yet I wouldn't put it past them to use them. That being said, even agreeing to the conditions would present an unfair advantage for their opinions. Like I said, I don't have to agree to anything, and the PM history will get out anyway.
You're all just going to have to put up with that either way; you can say it makes me look bad, but I'm not about to agree to something stupid. Put simply, in my position (if you knew what I know) you would definitely do the same (sufficed to say that things may not be as they appear to you, the public - regarding their proposition to begin with).
In the end, my interference won't change the outcome of the truth within the PMs - that being said, these conditions are a waste of everyone's time; if you miss a point, it's going to take you 4 days before you understand.
Post the PM history, I don't mind; if the users of this forums can refrain from making wild assumptions, I can guarantee I won't post. (that being said, just be sure about what you're saying before you say it)





Kyle, and everyone else. This is the last time I'm going to tell you nicely (because you fail to show me the respect of actually reading what I've said, you will lose that level of respect):
I did not bring up any past dealings, any past bans, or any past disputes.
Stop assuming that I'm bringing up that old dispute; I'm well aware that you're all tired of hearing it and I would be an asshole to bring it up like that again.
ESPECIALLY since it is still being disputed and I'm awaiting a response from Tank Program.
Pay attention this time kyle:
Z-Man brought up the conversation of the PM history as a means of disproving my claims that I was already subject to his unreasonable behavior.
The recent posts are about Lucifer's RECENT abuse. Please, kyle, don't make such assumptions about me. You're just buying into everything those moderators want you to buy into.*

How is it that you manage to be this ignorant?
Read everything that was said, or you remain ignorant and will draw the wrong conclusions (please don't be a Lucifer - we already have enough idiots on these forums).

Just because I have proof of their incompetence, and I mention it, doesn't mean I'm bringing up past arguments.
You say I've been bickering for 2 months - when really you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
The original ban dispute is being dealt with - you needn't concern yourself with it.
The PM history was brought up by Z-Man; talk to him about your concerns.
Any other bickering during that time was unrelated (like the hypocrisy regarding the rules for ladle team names).
And finally these recent events are ALSO UNRELATED to the past events (other than Lucifer being the offender again).

Pretend nothing happened in the past, like everyone had a clean slate; I would still be posting as I am now. Moderator abuse is wrong.

Please, read and understand the above ^
Don't be an asshole the next time you post; know what you're talking about.

P.S - "Foe" me all you like. Given the recent way you've been posting without thinking, I might prefer it.
P.P.S - Did you see the abuse? Did you experience it first hand? Would you like me to point you to it? There's a difference between being able to prove something, and just making a false claim because of a false impression. There is no false impression when it comes to Lucifer's abuse; and if you want I will show you exactly how he abused.


AGAIN: this is about recent events and that's all I'm recently posting about anyway. I didn't have an intention to discuss past events as they are currently being dealt with by Tank Program.
Talk to Z-Man about your problems with the past issues; he's the one to bring it up.
All in all, stop making assumptions; be sure of what you're saying for you make an ASS out of U and ME.
*(I'm not sociable - I have no etiquette when I speak, which allows for more purpose - as such, stop buying into your emotions and think about what's actually going on around here - don't allow the abusive moderators to take advantage of my social weaknesses so as to gain emotional favor allowing them to abuse right under your nose)




@everyone: I get the purpose of the conditions. I can assure you there is no need for them.
Enforcing them upon me / refusing to post the PM history without them is stupid. The PM history will be posted regardless.
Also, given that I have a different social outlook, I don't care how it makes me look - I know what I know and I'm not about to agree to something stupid just to have a bunch of ignorant people "like" me. Sorry if that falls short of your social expectations; but you better get used to me not meeting them.

[Durf]

double post because...I feel it would be inappropriate to edit the previous.

Given that there are no reasons for the conditions / the PM history will get out anyway, this should be a fairly decent compromise:


I will agree to the moderators and myself not posting about it for the full 96 hours on these conditions:
- it is the entire, unedited PM history (I save a backup to ensure this)
- no verdict is decided upon until after the moderators and myself have been allowed to speak on the topic again, AND have dealt with all subsequent discussions
- which means that anyone choosing to get themselves involved in this dispute should be prepared to actually dispute the issue with me *
- everyone has the understanding of the purpose of the thread that the PM history will be posted in (will this be to [dis]prove the bans being just?) **


* chances are that someone will misinterpret something that was said (as Z-Man did in the PMs), meaning that unless you're willing to dispute it with the person who was actually involved, you aren't credible to make judgement (you'd only be judging me based on if you like me or not - not if Z-Man was being an unreasonable moderator or not. This is to prevent emotional judgements.)

** No, it won't - which is why this is partly a waste of your time as the underlying issue would still remain. What it will prove is if Z-Man was unreasonable / unfit to handle a dispute (if he just asserted his authority and didn't care for a user being mistreated). That being said - don't complain if this leads to more discussions such as Lucifer's previous abuse, unreasonable behavior, obsessions with being wanting to be right, and his more recent abuse. You will be asking for this (should you instigate such conversation).

Again, as a reminder, the purpose of posting the PM history and having the community judge for themselves would be to determine Z-Man's credibility and is unrelated to the dispute itself. Unless anyone has an objection with this, or something is being left out that can be proven by judging the PM history, please make it known before this all starts. (the last thing you want is for everyone to be confused about why they're reading all that - much like the misunderstandings regarding my recent posts on Lucifer's abusive behavior)

Otherwise, I can post the PM history anyway without adhering to any conditions, and it won't be breaking any rules. GG.
The PM history will be posted either way; probably sometime tonight. But let's see what the moderators have to say about this compromise.
Don't delay too much though...


P.S - given that people already know that my original ban(s) were unjust, I find it funny that everyone is going to see how Z-Man blindly defends Lucifer's unjust bans (so noble...yet so ignorant - why did you think he didn't want the history to get out in the first place?).

P.P.S - choosing to deal with an old problem won't get rid of the new problems / I will still be asking for admittance from the moderators for the recent abuse.
Frankly, they have both failed in justifying the recent abuse done by Lucifer (specifically the questionable post, and the editing of a user's post for no valid reason).
That being said, you should all realize that avoiding the current issue by bringing up an old one is stupid. (they are obviously avoiding the current issue because the proof is already out in the public for all to see this time - the abuse is proven; so obviously the better option for them is something where the public MIGHT swing in their favor. They're just hoping things turn out well for them at this point - and going for the option they think they have a better chance in. Whether or not that is an attempt to fool you, the public, into forgetting these recent events; or to otherwise prolong and delay the issue until it no longer becomes as relevant, shouldn't matter to you if you care about what's right).
All in all, problems will be solved. So long as mistakes are made, there will be someone to point them out (that is the beauty of us all having unique perceptions). I'm one of those people for moderators...why? Because I have the experience. (Frankly, I would be overqualified to do their job).

[Magi]

(Frankly, I would be overqualified to do their job).

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Honestly, I just want this to be over, and I think everyone else wants it to be over too.

[xXSyagehtllikXx]

Durf: 9 Mods: 14
Cased Closed
ggs
rekt