Ranking/Seed System for future ladles

[noob_saibot]

I'm sorry I must have mis-read something. I was agreeing with a point, but I must have misinterpreted it. So no! Clans are not exempt! But woned is spot on, and I think we go ahead with his system or whatever you want to call it. It's really not rocket science, we just need to take the initiative and DO IT. DO IT.

[sinewav]

This is getting close, but we need to dig deeper. I had a conversation about this a few minutes ago and here are some issues that need to be cleared up:

1. Problem: TeamAwesome wins the Ladle, then next month forms TeamAwesome1 and TeamAwesome2, both with 3 players from the previous team. Who gets the seed? Maybe the minimum should be 4 players and the name should be exactly the same?

2. How do we track who actually played to deserve the seed? The Challenge Board doesn't say who played or when they played. Would a screenshot of the final match be enough to ensure the seeded players are verified for the following Ladle? Does a missing screenshot result in a lost seed? Will a copy of the server logs suffice? (I know the finals are usually recorded, but the semis?)


To recap what we are looking at so far...

• 4 seeds get placed in their own branches.
• Byes get filled in reverse to give the winner the greatest chance of getting one (if there are 15 teams registered, seeds 4, 3, then 2 will face teams in the first round).
• Seeded teams must use the same name as the previous Ladle
• Seeded teams must have a minimum of 3-4 verified players to retain the seed.

Am I missing anything?

[Cody <3]

This is getting close, but we need to dig deeper. I had a conversation about this a few minutes ago and here are some issues that need to be cleared up:

1. Problem: TeamAwesome wins the Ladle, then next month forms TeamAwesome1 and TeamAwesome2, both with 3 players from the previous team. Who gets the seed? Maybe the minimum should be 4 players and the name should be exactly the same?

2. How do we track who actually played to deserve the seed? The Challenge Board doesn't say who played or when they played. Would a screenshot of the final match be enough to ensure the seeded players are verified for the following Ladle? Does a missing screenshot result in a lost seed? Will a copy of the server logs suffice? (I know the finals are usually recorded, but the semis?)


To recap what we are looking at so far...

• 4 seeds get placed in their own branches.
• Byes get filled in reverse to give the winner the greatest chance of getting one (if there are 15 teams registered, seeds 4, 3, then 2 will face teams in the first round).
• Seeded teams must use the same name as the previous Ladle
• Seeded teams must have a minimum of 3-4 verified players to retain the seed.

Am I missing anything?

I think to keep the seed, you must have at least 4 of the players who played.
Screen shots of the Semi Finals - Finals are needed to prove to get the seed.
For you to keep the seed you must use the same team names and same names(screen shots to prove)

There now that settle's it happy tronning

[owned]

This is getting close, but we need to dig deeper. I had a conversation about this a few minutes ago and here are some issues that need to be cleared up:

1. Problem: TeamAwesome wins the Ladle, then next month forms TeamAwesome1 and TeamAwesome2, both with 3 players from the previous team. Who gets the seed? Maybe the minimum should be 4 players and the name should be exactly the same?

2. How do we track who actually played to deserve the seed? The Challenge Board doesn't say who played or when they played. Would a screenshot of the final match be enough to ensure the seeded players are verified for the following Ladle? Does a missing screenshot result in a lost seed? Will a copy of the server logs suffice? (I know the finals are usually recorded, but the semis?)


To recap what we are looking at so far...

• 4 seeds get placed in their own branches.
• Byes get filled in reverse to give the winner the greatest chance of getting one (if there are 15 teams registered, seeds 4, 3, then 2 will face teams in the first round).
• Seeded teams must use the same name as the previous Ladle
• Seeded teams must have a minimum of 3-4 verified players to retain the seed.

Am I missing anything?

I was talking to titan and dlh about this a little while ago, and some of the same issues came up.

1. Given that when one team splits into two like that, they are both in coordination, there should be no problem over which team gets the seed. Forcing teams to keep the same name would cause ridiculous names like Speeders 2 when there is only one Sp team existing. The way to confirm which team gets the seed is to change the team signup format from
{{LadleTeamExternal|Your Team Name|Team Captain's Name|Team Captain's Global ID|Teammate 1, Teammate 2, ..|http://teamwebsite.com}}
to
{{LadleTeamExternal|Your Team Name|Team Captain's Name|Team Captain's Global ID|Teammate 1, Teammate 2, ..|Seed number (or no seed)|http://teamwebsite.com}}

2. Should it count if you played early in the tournament or just in the final 2 rounds? Because if it does count, then you also need screenshots of every match throughout the tournament. Should someone who comes in the middle of a match and leaves before it ends count? They won't be on the screenshot.

The best way to ensure accountability and to not need a new topic every time a team needs to "prove" their 3/4 players, is to include a section at each ladle page with every screenshot and recording available. Perhaps clicking on a match would bring you to a separate page where screenshots, recording, and maybe even statistics for that match are held? I wouldn't know how to do this, but hopefully someone on the forum who does is willing to put in the time. I don't suppose it would be hard at the very least to make a new section and ask people to post links to recordings and screenshots there.

[Lucifer]

I dunno if I'd worry too much about screenshots being lost. If a team needs them to prove they earned the seed, then it's in their interests to ensure the screenshots exist. I'd worry more about dealing with faked screenshots.

[sinewav]

{{LadleTeamExternal|Your Team Name|Team Captain's Name|Team Captain's Global ID|Teammate 1, Teammate 2, ..|Seed number (or no seed)|http://teamwebsite.com}}

...include a section at each ladle page with every screenshot and recording available. Perhaps clicking on a match would bring you to a separate page where screenshots, recording, and maybe even statistics for that match are held?

I don't think we need a separate wiki page for screenshots. Why not just use the current Ladle thread after the finals? I'm also not sure the the signup format needs to change either. It's probably easier if the Ladle Enthusiast who creates the new Challenge Board simply places the seeds in the new bracket as it is created. If the seed is lost before randomization, we just take it off.

[owned]

{{LadleTeamExternal|Your Team Name|Team Captain's Name|Team Captain's Global ID|Teammate 1, Teammate 2, ..|Seed number (or no seed)|http://teamwebsite.com}}

...include a section at each ladle page with every screenshot and recording available. Perhaps clicking on a match would bring you to a separate page where screenshots, recording, and maybe even statistics for that match are held?

I don't think we need a separate wiki page for screenshots. Why not just use the current Ladle thread after the finals? I'm also not sure the the signup format needs to change either. It's probably easier if the Ladle Enthusiast who creates the new Challenge Board simply places the seeds in the new bracket as it is created. If the seed is lost before randomization, we just take it off.

I'm saying that we should change the format to make it clear which team gets the seed in your situation above. Because I still think small changes should be allowed, this is my solution.

[sinewav]

Oooohhhh OK. I get what you are saying now.

[sinewav]

So, someone want to write this up as a procedure? We can copy the procedure into the voting thread to make it easier for Team Leaders to discuss with their teams when the time comes. Without clearly written procedures I have little hope of it passing. The current ideas are the best mix of seeding and randomization we've had yet; it would be a shame if we couldn't clear this up.

[Jip]

I think we could use dlh's statistic script to see wich player played the most rounds. So the 4 players who played the most rounds can get a seed for next ladle when they are playing in the same team together again.

[orion]

dlh, what happened with l36 statistic?

[sinewav]

Bump. Voting is soon.

So, someone want to write this up as a procedure? We can copy the procedure into the voting thread to make it easier for Team Leaders to discuss with their teams when the time comes. Without clearly written procedures I have little hope of it passing. The current ideas are the best mix of seeding and randomization we've had yet; it would be a shame if we couldn't clear this up.

[owned]

Due to the complexity of voting for the exact rules for seeding and the fact that it seems everyone else has lost interest in this, the requirements needed to retain a seed will not be voted on now.

The rules for retaining a seed are:
1. The team must have the same name.
-Small exceptions are allowed, for example, Tx to Twixted Xats or Sp to Sp1.
2. The team must have either:
-The same captain (or at least one captain out of the two, if there were two) and three additional players who were on the challenge board the previous ladle
or
-Five players who were on the challenge board in the previous ladle

The thing that will actually be voted on regarding seeding will be the number of seeds:

1. How many seeds do you think should be used from ladle to ladle?

No seeds | 4 seeds | 8 seeds (because of the nature of the vote, no seeds needs to beat both 4 and 8 combined in order to win, similar to how in dlh's vote, not banning needed to beat a ban for one ladle and a ban for two ladles combined in order to win)

Seeds would be arranged as in the shown brackets (can a poster post pics of how a 4 seed and 8 seed bracket would look like? I don't know how to use attachments)

If there are 4 seeds, then the third seed is the semifinal loser to the eventual winner in the previous ladle, while the fourth seed is the semifinal loser to the eventual runner up in the previous ladle.

If there are 8 seeds, then the top four seeds are chosen as above, while the fifth seed is the quarterfinal loser to the eventual winner, the sixth seed is the quarterfinal loser to the eventual runner-up, and so on.

Did I miss anything?

[sinewav]

Cool. I added a section about seeding to the regulations. It's a good start.

It's kind of late to start a voting thread with a single topic that even if it is accepted couldn't be put into place until L-38 at the earliest. Should we go for it anyway?

[Lackadaisical]

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread, but why isn't there an option for 2 seeds?