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Jonathan
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Re: Calling Mac'sters for system advice!

Post by Jonathan »


(I own both sides of the board now. For board peace. Or possibly domination.)
Phytotron wrote:
Jonathan wrote:As for the trickier stuff:
Blu-ray: seems pretty harmless, although I can't prove it won't burn the entire machine down.
Yeah, but why pay extra for something I'll never use.
If the entire package still seems like a good deal. That's assuming you can get either the package as it is or nothing.
Phytotron wrote:
FireWire: if it's about an external disk, would a USB enclosure be cheaper than a computer with FireWire?
Well, as you may have gathered, I have two enclosures now; one takes FireWire, the other USB. But as I've mentioned I may not even bother trying—and more importantly, risking—accessing those with Linux. But I do have a FireWire scanner.
Ah. Apparently I'm not paying that much attention. As for the scanner, make sure you have a driver to begin with.

I'm pretty much running out of advice here. I have experimented with Linux a little a while back, but it didn't catch on with me. And as I've said, I haven't looked at hardware in a while either. Good luck.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by sinewav »

Check out this page related to Linux Mint's resources:
http://community.linuxmint.com/hardware

I totally know how you are feeling. I did the same thing in this thread. In the end, I just bought the same Laptop Z-Man had, haha. You know, because if it's good enough for him... Well, it's not exactly the same, but I'm satisfied. As it turns out the integrated Intel graphics are shite and Nvidia video would have been a better purchase. Linux has good support for most ATI video actually.

My friend who initially introduced me to Linux (with gushing praise before he unexpectedly switched to Win7 a few months later) told me you can't go wrong with Dell. It seems the Linux world spends a lot of time using Dell machines, probably because of their massive distribution and the fact they are generally pretty solid machines.

If you buy a used computer from someone, they might even be nice enough to let you check out the machine first with a Linux Live-CD. I did that last week when I bought that Dell laptop. I went to the guy's house and booted the computer from the Fedora Live-CD to see if it worked. It did, I handed him some money and drove off with my new toy!

And like Jonathan above, I'm running out of advice too simply because I am still a relatively new Linux user. I'm in the "just needs to work" crowd like you and I seem to have found a comfortable fit with Ubuntu/Mint. Some people think I know a lot about computers and stuff, but I'm practically an idiot and fumble my way through everything. Also, I can't say for sure I won't be using Windows again in the future, if my needs demand it. But for now I'm good.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Phytotron »

sinewav wrote:Check out this page related to Linux Mint's resources:
http://community.linuxmint.com/hardware/
Nifty. I had looked at Ubuntu's hardware support page. Some list. I'm just hoping to skip having to look up reviews on every one of those, ya know' although, obviously I could do it in reverse. As for Mint's searchable list... Desktop Computer, Any brand, Works Perfectly, Maya: sixteen results. Type: PC turned up five.

Flatbed scanner, any type, any compatibility: no hardware found. >_< But a quick googling shows that my scanner is almost impossible for even the geeks to get working on Linux. Bah.
I totally know how you are feeling. I did the same thing in this thread. In the end, I just bought the same Laptop Z-Man had, haha.
Yeah, I looked up that thread before I got on about this. And wouldn't you know it:
sinewav wrote:My main reason for looking at different vendors is because I'm not entirely sure I want another ATI chip; I've had bad experiences with just about every ATI product I've owned.

Can anyone say for sure which is the best video chipset to use with Linux? I guess that's the question I should really be asking. From what I've read so far, it's nVidia. ATI makes Linux users angry it seems.
So that's one place I read it, heh. And in comments on webpages, forums, youtube videos, etc.

If you buy a used computer from someone, they might even be nice enough to let you check out the machine first with a Linux Live-CD.
Oh, I would insist. I'm starting with businesses first, though, since I really wouldn't even know how to evaluate a PC.
And like Jonathan above, I'm running out of advice too...
Yeah, thanks to you both. I now await the chiming of all the PC/Linux geeks.
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(I own both sides of the board now. For board peace. Or possibly domination.)
Just this, because I don't know how to make speech like Game of Thrones.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by sinewav »

I had a similar problem with my scanner not working. On forums some people said it worked out of the box and others were never able to get it working. The scanner didn't work for me, then one day (quite magically) it did. I guess one of the regular updates had a fix for it.

My printer, on the other hand, never worked. But who prints anything these days? Not me. I print something, like, twice a year. So in those instances I walk my laptop over to my roommate's printer and plug into that for a perfect print, haha.
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Re: Calling Mac'sters for system advice!

Post by Lucifer »

Phytotron wrote:
Lucifer wrote:I decided a few years back that it was time to get rid of the mouse and rethink how things are done on a desktop. That is, until someone figures out how to put a pop-out keyboard on a tablet and makes laptops obsolete.
Heh, did you look at the Lunduke link above?

Man, Lucifer. I saw your name as 'last post' and was hoping you were going to give me all kinds of info. You've been nudging me about Linux for years.
I've lost the energy to care that much about it anymore, and you're in good hands already, eh?
And don't you guys enjoy talking about gear and stuff? I could really use some specific recommendations. I'm doing my own reading, of course, but some pointings in directions would be really helpful; PC hardware is entirely new to me. Even outright, "these three specific models would be good." Pretty please. :)
I have a Dell Inspiron E1505 that works flawlessly with Ubuntu. Er, not flawlessly, I meant "has trouble with the SD card reader". And has KDE on it. KDE works fine in Ubuntu. Just use Kubuntu.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Phytotron »

Well, I tried earlier this evening to do the LiveCD demo deal on my wife's MacBook Pro, with no luck. We almost never burn anything to CD or DVD, but we did have a few of each laying around. The CD-R's are 700MB, and Ubuntu is 698MB. At the end of the 'verify disc' part of the burning, it says the disc can't be verified and spits it out at me, like "ew, yuck, get this out of me." I was aghast at such poor manners. So, I stuck it back in and it did mount and showed the files, but when I tried to boot from it, no dice, just booted up like normal. Yes, I followed all procedures for burning (CD's wouldn't burn more slowly than 8x, though) and booting correctly.

As far as Mint, it's near 900MB, so I tried the DVD-R, but before it even did anything it said "not a writable disk" or some such.

So, I don't want to bother any further figuring it out, I don't want to go buy a pack of discs just for this, or to bother anyone else with trying to use their computer. I think I'm just going to order the installation discs direct, and go ahead and get whatever PC I end up getting.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Phytotron »

Phytotron wrote:I think I'm just going to order the installation discs direct, and go ahead and get whatever PC I end up getting.
Canonical is selling only the 32-bit version of Ubuntu. Eh, why not the 64-bit? I figured that'd be the version to have, right? Especially for Unity. On a capable machine, of course, but isn't that just about anything within the last decade?

Maybe I should just get the PC, then try to make discs using that and Windoze.

But then I've also been browsing the Ubuntu Installation Guide (which I assume is virtually the same for Mint). Ugh. I didn't realize there was all that pre-installation crap to deal with. All this stuff about BIOS, drivers, and firmware, about which I know zilch; never had to deal with that stuff with Macs. "Installation is easy, just boot from the CD and follow the installer," they said. Hmmph. :x


Speaking behind the scenes with Jonathan about its viability, I may add the G5 iMac back into my search; those have gotten relatively cheapish. This isn't to say I'm abandoning the Linux PC thing; that's still what I'd rather do at this point. But if I have to deal with all that complicated pre-installation crap, and if I can find a good G5 cheap....
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by sinewav »

I've never looked at an installation guide. I've never had to pre-install anything. I just put the CD in the drive, boot from it, then follow the install instructions on the screen. Have a friend burn a CD for you if you can't do it on your machine?
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Phytotron »

OK, but, even the process of booting from a CD on a Windows/PC machine? Seems to be some involved process at least configuring BIOS or something? On a Mac, if you want to boot from a disk all you do is turn on the machine, hold down 'C' and viola; no special configuration required.
sinewav wrote:Have a friend burn a CD for you if you can't do it on your machine?
Phytotron wrote:So, I don't want to bother any further figuring it out, I don't want to go buy a pack of discs just for this, or to bother anyone else with trying to use their computer.
:)

But, today I went and picked up my sister's Power Mac G4 she's gonna let me borrow until I get me replacement. I'm going to give it a try on this one.

This thing has a 20.5" cinema display. What the hell, people? I put it at the back of the desk but still want to scoot back a few feet. Like, I need another desk (or shelf) behind this one, just for the display, heh. And the back tilt makes me want to sit up more, which would probably be a good thing.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Tank Program »

In general I've never gotten my Macbook to boot off of anything linux other than a USB key, and that was dodgy. Linux works great on it after it's installed for the same reasons OS X does - lots of people with identical hardware, but installing, and by extensions LiveCDs are a nightmare. If you're feeling technical minded and the Macbook is an Intel one, you can probably try the LiveCD out in VirtualBox, without even needing to burn the disk.

Graphics support under linux is very much a flow chart type affair. You follow down a specific list of rules to find out whether or not the card you're looking at will work. Of course, no one has that list written anywhere, so it's not terribly friendly either. Intel 945 and below, no go. Intel 950 up to Sandy Bridge chipsets (second generation Core processors with 3000) OK. Finally. They weren't 6 months ago though. All of that is with built-in drivers, no extra work required.

ATI. Ugh. They are horrofic, because there is a huge modgepodge of drivers. Anything starting with an X should be OK (R500). After that... I don't know. It's too confusing to get deep in to it unless you really care. The R500 should be out of the box, but I wouldn't count on it.

nVidia is nicely clear cut. Anything predating GeForce is OK, e.g. Riva TNT, no extra work necessary. Up to GeForce 4 is supported under one driver. GeForce up to the 5000 series cards are supported under another. Everything after that is actively supported and should generally work out of the box with a relatively easy driver installation, equiavlent to what you'd need to do for Windows.

Altogether safest bets are with Intel graphics, but you're sacrificing a lot of performance for that. It'll still run Armagetron though.

Scanners are evil under Linux. Can't get around that. Printer support is iffy. HPs are usually OK. Everything else is about 50/50 odds of it being supported and working.

In terms of what to look for in a complete PC, I have no idea what to describe. There's simply far too much variation. The safest bet is probably to look at big name systems. Anything Dell is an OK bet. Lenovo laptops are generally pretty good. The most critical thing to look for, and this applies for Dell, Lenovo, and everything else, is age. Your best bets are looking at hardware that's at least 3 years old so that other people have had a chance to try it out.

Out of time now - need to catch the train...
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Phytotron »

Tank Program wrote:There's simply far too much variation.
Yeah, that's my trouble, especially being totally new to PC hardware. Like, all that stuff you referenced means little to nothing to me, heh. So many numbers and letters! Confuzzling. Still, I appreciate it and hopefully it'll be useful as a reference.

That's why I was kinda hoping someone might come along and say, "here are a few computers that meet your budget and criteria that ought to work well."

If I had dough to throw, I'd get something from System76 or one of those. But then, if I had that kind of money I'd just get a Mac. Because, funnily enough, a computer from System76 is pretty much the same price as an iMac with comparable specs. But anyhoo.

Graphics aren't much of a concern for me, in terms of performance. I play Armagetron and 2D arcade and console emulators (though I haven't yet looked up to see what's available for Linux); that's about it. I'm more concerned with compatibility. And, like, internet video. On this computer, even some 360p youtube videos are stuttery. But then, I don't even know how much that relates to the video card.
...relatively easy driver installation, equivalent to what you'd need to do for Windows.
And I don't even know what that would be. Got me some learnin' to do. :/


Don't anyone say there's no value in not having to deal with all this kind of mess with Macs. It's kinda like saying, "I shouldn't have to pay a chef to cook this for me; I can source and buy the ingredients for cheaper."
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Tank Program »

Phytotron wrote:That's why I was kinda hoping someone might come along and say, "here are a few computers that meet your budget and criteria that ought to work well."
This is unlikely for the exact same reason again - the variation. Odds are none of us have something you can also get and know that Linux works on it. All I can tell you from personal experience is that last autumn I got an HP dv7-6163us, and it works with Linux. I don't know how much you're up for a $700 17" laptop though - complete with annoying touch pad. Everything else I've got is built from scratch, and I suspect would not make you a happy camper to assemble.
Phytotron wrote:Graphics aren't much of a concern for me, in terms of performance. I play Armagetron and 2D arcade and console emulators (though I haven't yet looked up to see what's available for Linux); that's about it. I'm more concerned with compatibility. And, like, internet video. On this computer, even some 360p youtube videos are stuttery. But then, I don't even know how much that relates to the video card.
Flash video is an annoying combination of CPU and GPU, hurrah! Still, I suspect Intel Integrated Graphics should be fine for you 99% of the time.
Phytotron wrote:
...relatively easy driver installation, equivalent to what you'd need to do for Windows.
And I don't even know what that would be. Got me some learnin' to do. :/
Ack. I remember thinking about this while writing it and dismissing it - there generally isn't really driver installation under OS X, and every time I've had to do it it's been harder than trying to do it under Windows.
Phytotron wrote:Don't anyone say there's no value in not having to deal with all this kind of mess with Macs.
No, this sort of thing is precisely why when I wanted a new laptop (before the HP) that I lobbied for, and ultimately bought a Macbook. I was just fed up with my Dell laptop (this is my 3rd laptop back now) dying and doing weird shit under Linux - particularly the lack of suspend/sleep was annoying as all get out. It's better now, but the Macbook is excellent to have simply because I know it will work when everything else I have is broken. Of course, I've gone and put Linux on it at this point, but that's because I'm in Germany and severely reduced in number of computers available and I need the additional flexibility, yada, yada, yada.

I wish there was some easy way to help kick start you on Linux without actually physically being present. I know that I could look at any bit of hardware and give a good estimation of compatibility and all that jazz - but to convey that knowledge is so hard. I'm also severely concious that you've got a restricted budget which means getting it right the first time.

What might be worth a shot is canvassing any local computer shops and asking if they've got any stuff that they're about to toss out and/or checking the skips/bins (dumpsters/garbage cans) behind them for any stuff. Any friends at nearby companies and educational institutions should be asked as well. Checking your local dump might be good too. Odds are you could snag a P3 or early P4 for somewhere for free, or at least the components to build one - I've had good luck finding bits and pieces like this. While being shit in terms of performance the hardware should all be completely Linux compatible. If you ignore frustration from a result of it being slow it should tell you whether or not Linux is something you really want to pursue. (For comparison when I was doing this I was finding P1/P2 systems/bits and that's what I started learning on.)
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Lucifer »

Don't forget your local government resale outlets. You know, surplus shops. Where the computers that survive use in public schools go back out to the public for like $15/piece.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Tank Program »

Surplus shops are good fun. Private universities have them sometimes too. Also, thrift shops, flea markets, and garage sales can be a good source for cheap old computers.
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Re: Mac user going Linux PC (skip to page 4)

Post by Phytotron »

Those are good tips. The majority of our stuff (especially once you remove records, which we mostly buy new) is used/pre-owned, so I'm well acquainted with that market, though not as much the surplus outlets. I did run across some off-lease HP workstations. I had my eye on an Inspiron 560 being sold at a "Jewelry & Repair" shop. And I am a haggler.

But over the weekend, I wound up purchasing a Dell Inspiron 620 MT, with monitor, on sale. I won't bore you all (further) walking you through the entirety of my reasoning, but suffice it to say I decided that if I was going to get a PC, even temporarily, this would be the way to go. It was $609 before tax, which is still a budgetary hit, but seemed like a fairly good deal. Not spectacular by any means, but good enough. I see used ones selling for about the same price, so. I just went with the base system. I considered doing the RAM and Nvidia upgrades, but that would've put it up around $800, and I don't think I need those, so forget that. Plus, I can always upgrade it myself later, if need be. As it was, the only upgrade I went with was to the ST2320L monitor, which during the sale was just a $10 addition.

Another thing that influenced my decision is that this model is listed on Ubuntu's "certified hardware" page. The only difference is the model they list says "i-5-2300 @ 2.8 GHz" while the one I got is a 2320 at 3.0 GHz. But, I'm assuming (hoping) that the driver(s) apply to the series, not just that specific version. And I did find a handful of instances of people saying they had Ubuntu 12.04 on that specific chip. The only tricky thing, from what I read, might be some issues with the monitor and/or integrated GPU, like something to do with "nomodeset" or something. Hopefully that isn't an issue.

So, now the question is, presuming Ubuntu works, do I set it up to dual boot? To this point I had been working under the assumption I'd just do a clean install, but that was assuming I'd be getting a cheap used computer. Now I'm not so sure. On the one hand, I may as well dual boot considering I paid the "Windows Tax"—plus, I think I only get a recovery disc, not an actual install disc. On the other hand, reading over the Ubuntu documentation on dual booting and partitioning and all, it looks rather complicated, tricky, and risky, especially for a know-nothing novice such as myself. What do you fellers think?

If only the Hackintosh implementation were a little simpler and more straight-forward. I'd be all over that. Actually, this method doesn't look too terribly difficult, unless you run into one of the "if this goes wrong, then do this" issues. Hmm.



edit: monitor model correction
Last edited by Phytotron on Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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