Thank you Sine, Convict, Compguygene, Monkey, Nelg for well-thought out responses.
sinewav wrote:But more importantly, we need to combat the subtle, "everyday" sexism that's weaved throughout this game and the world at large. It starts by convincing people something can be done and that small steps lead to big gains. For instance, every one of us is capable of making small changes to the way we speak. Instead of telling another player to "stop being a little bitch" be more honest about the behavior you don't like. If they are being cowardly, tell them to stop being cowardly. If they are whining then tell them to stop complaining instead of using these easy fall-back phrases. And, remind people who use sexist language that they can do better.
Of course, it really helps when you have someone you care about support you. When I was a kid I got hooked on the phrase "that's gay." Everything I didn't like was gay -- until later in life one of my good friends was gay. Whenever I said "that's gay" around him he would flash a cute smile and say "if it was gay it would be cool!" It was his reminder that this phrase was not Ok with him. He was gay and cool and he was my friend and over time I was able to stop saying "that's gay" and I'm proud of myself for doing it. I think we can all be a little prouder about how we speak to others.
Find one small thing you can do to make things better and try and get another person to do the same. That's all it takes.
Thanks Sine. This is an example of language use that is tied to older frameworks of sexism, homophobia, etc. "That's gay" is frowned upon in many communities now, why is "bitch" still okay? Even if you use "gay" or "bitch" to refer to someone other than a gay person or a woman, that's still what the language
implies, and in using that language to refer to something negative, it perpetuates a connection between the negative thing and homosexuality and women. There are so many words to choose from, why continue to use words that perpetuate or recall "past" instances of discrimination and inequality? I know there are men and women who use these words without caring or thinking about it, but if anyone wants to argue these words are totally divorced from their original meanings, they would have to explain why these words are still used specifically to put certain groups down.
This difference in opinion about what is disrespectful language to women and what is not is not even the only thing that happens on the grid and what I was talking about when I posted this thread. Many players like to talk about female body parts like objects that they naturally have the right to judge and to discuss what to do with like they own them, just because they are men. In these conversations women are treated like their bodies are the most important thing about them. This mindset is true of the world we live in, too.
And then there is the malicious and
ntentional use of sexist language in order to put a woman down specifically, which we saw with Pressure.
I'm not speaking for every woman on this game. I know at least one of them thinks it's not a big deal because she can "take a joke". I don't think these are jokes. I wouldn't want to be a woman in a server in which women are discussed like meat, or insulted directly or indirectly because she is a woman. If you think these things are wrong, please stop telling people to accept it.
This brings me to Convict's posts. I think parts of your posts are wrong, and the other part is just a difference in opinion. I think you are wrong when you say it makes things worse when I highlight a problem, because trolls are going to troll harder. A lot of what I described are done by players who don't consider themselves trolls. Like Sine said, a lot of it is subtle, "everyday" sexism. By making this an issue, people are aware of their own language, and aware that at least some people find it a problem. Maybe some will restrict their language, maybe others won't. But without saying anything, nothing would change. I haven't so far been trolled harder because of this post. I have actually seen less sexist language on the grid, I don't know if it's because people around me know I have a problem with it. I think at least some of it is due to that. So, it works. It would've just continued if I said nothing.
The other part of your complaint is that you strongly feel that what we have suggested is not effective. You eventually said you would participate partly even if you don't think it will work, which I appreciate, because otherwise I was wondering why you would tear down any effort to make Tron better. All I can say is, I and others have raised this as a problem, we have suggested the need for more moderators and will hopefully provide more moderation tools for server owners, and Z-man has suggested a grid-wide moderation network. Now, if others want to do something about this, they already have suggestions how to and some tools to use. If you think moderation does not work with trolls, just look at the forum. Moderation obviously works. On the grid, a moderator can silence, kick, ban, and generally make life much harder for a troll. Messages about discriminatory behavior let people know it's not okay. I don't see anything wrong in any of this. Even if it doesn't get rid of all undesirable behavior, at least it hinders it. I don't know why your view of trying to stop something is just to wait for that thing to get bored/tired and stop itself. That's not how the real world works either. If you want to stop something, you enact measures to stop it.
Nelg, I think you contradict yourself. On one hand, you think no one can control trolls, therefore if someone can't deal with them they should not be on the Internet. On the other hand, you suggest that server owners can modify their servers and the rules, and that trolls are "free to play wherever they like." You acknowledge that server owners can dissuade trolls from playing in their server by making life harder for them, yet at the same time you believe if someone "can't deal with trolls" they should just leave because trolls can't be controlled. Well, everything is coded. Behavior on the Internet can be shaped by what is coded and the community rules. You know this, yet you are against our efforts in increasing or encouraging moderation. I can't help but notice you use "free" or "freedom" like three times in your post, and suggest that server owners have the freedom to modify however they want. I don't think you have anything to worry about, no one is impinging on your right as a server owner. I have not heard of anything as mandatory, we are only encouraging moderation on the grid and discussing tools to make it easier for those that want it.
Long post, oh well
