People all over the world I need your help

[Word]

What does Germany have in common with let say Bulgaria... Or Romania...

At least the same amount of things Nevada has in common with Florida.

Romania, Bulgaria and Germany: Same continent, same cultural roots (Romans and local tribes that were influenced by one another, the migration period, many small principalities that begin to merge during the 19th century, Bulgaria was badly affected by World War II while Romania actively supported Germany, afterwards all three countries had a socialist regime if one takes the existence of the GDR into account), same climate (and thus basically the same animals/plants), similar religions (orthodoxy is closer to catholicism than protestanism is), and similar types of democratic governments (I'd be very careful to say that we have less corrupt politicians than another European country), the same alphabet (well, in case of Romania), the same numeric system...none of that can be taken for granted and all of us are interdependent, some more than others. That's one of the reasons why some people think it's necessary and possible to develop the EU to become more like the American system.
Suffice to say that we also share a lot of similarities with Americans whose ancestors came from here.


I don't deny that there are some economic and social (both non-permanent) differences that are used to make the countries look more different from one another than they are and that happen to be polarizing. But why don't you think of Spain, Italy, Greece, France...? How are they any different from those countries, save for language? If I were to pick European countries that are totally different from Germany, that would be Switzerland, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein and Ireland (I wouldn't even pick Turkey).

[takburger]

What does Germany have in common with let say Bulgaria... Or Romania...

At least the same amount of things Nevada has in common with Florida.

Romania, Bulgaria and Germany: Same continent, same cultural roots (Romans and local tribes that were influenced by one another, the migration period, many small principalities that begin to merge during the 19th century, Bulgaria was badly affected by World War II while Romania actively supported Germany, afterwards all three countries had a socialist regime if one takes the existence of the GDR into account), same climate (and thus basically the same animals/plants), similar religions (orthodoxy is closer to catholicism than protestanism is), and similar types of democratic governments (I'd be very careful to say that we have less corrupt politicians than another European country), the same alphabet (well, in case of Romania), the same numeric system...none of that can be taken for granted and all of us are interdependent, some more than others. That's one of the reasons why some people think it's necessary and possible to develop the EU to become more like the American system.
Suffice to say that we also share a lot of similarities with Americans whose ancestors came from here.


I don't deny that there are some economic and social (both non-permanent) differences that are used to make the countries look more different from one another than they are and that happen to be polarizing. But why don't you think of Spain, Italy, Greece, France...? How are they any different from those countries, save for language? If I were to pick European countries that are totally different from Germany, that would be Switzerland, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein and Ireland (I wouldn't even pick Turkey).

I just quoted countries that have way different economical situation. Implying a way different quality in education for instance.

Also, as far as I know, you were introducing with your paper a study that talk about the actual knowledge of things by the people of EU and US.

We were not talking about culture as a social group, but culture as knowledge. That is totally different. And by raising Spain, Italy etc, you raise again cultural differences as a social group (as Hofstede defines it).

If I chose those two countries, it was to have a radical difference in term of economy. Yes I could have chosen Spain or Italy or Greece, but the example would have striken less. Shall I take Kosovo ? (I know that it is not in EU but your study was saying Europe and you said EU)

PS: Turkey is not yet in EU, if you include Turkey I include Russia

At last: Yes, it is like comparing the state of NY and Nebraska. But in fact not, because the education, healthcare, military, security etc etc have some federal contexts while in EU, there is no such context. It is not that comparable.

Pps: one very interesting image: https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 1457_n.jpg

[Word]

I just quoted countries that have way different economical situation. Implying a way different quality in education for instance.

Clearly, all of that depends on the parts of the population you consider worth asking. Not all people who live in Romania and Bulgaria have had a bad education. I'm not saying there's no correlation and mutual dependence between things like the current economic/political situation or educational deficits but I do think a study like this doesn't say anything about people of one country being more stupid than those of another. I was intentionally talking about our culture as a social group, because the scientific knowledge someone questions in these studies, as important as it is, has little to do with the question whether these countries are just "stupid" thanks to countries like ours. It makes it look like these countries exist in a cultural vacuum and are solely responsible for the economic well-being and the education of their citizens and you obviously think it works that way as well. The study is not a dick-size-contest.

There's no "radical difference" between our economy and that of Romania or Bulgaria. We are part of the same system and Germany benefits more from these countries than they do from us. I know that Turkey isn't in the EU yet but it represents the middle ground of East and West, and as such, has always been important for European trade, before and after the foundation of the EU. Russia and the Kosovo have nothing to do with all this (well, they have, but let's not be too nitpicky for now) since they're on an entirely different level, both economically (through their agreements with other countries, and their industrial/agricultural complex), historically and also politically (since both are an amalgam of several different cultures in their own right respectively - in both cases one can at least see that the EU and the US aren't quite as disunited as these countries - think of what happened to Georgia in 2008, for example) and their relationship with the rest was usually defined by one 'strong man'. Kosovo is going to join the EU sooner or later though, whereas Putin-Russia won't, simply because it is generally regarded as a dictatorship.

[...]while in EU, there is no such context

Again, there's no President of the United States of Europe yet, but that doesn't mean our political leaders don't talk to one another and negotiate about the same things every now and then - it's benefitting for everyone if, for example, education follows a certain standard and we acknowledge people with a foreign diploma. Otherwise we were unable to compete. The EU is the context.

[takburger]

We are extremely far from the basic ground of the argument saying that USA is polluting much more than EU does on a per capita basis, Word.

To answer to you (thank you by the way you elevated the discussion). Yes, not all who live in Bulgaria or Romania had a bad education, but then why take broad studies to then talk about individuals ? Also, yes, I think that the general level of all the countries is too low in term of education. Including mine.

I still do not agree about your point on the governance of EU. The leaders of our countries meet to decide general goals, and there are votes on some topics.

Those topics are: economic regulations, budget regulations and market regulations. There are indeed some work made on university level about education. But it would be crazy to reduce education to university. (also the equivalences you're talking about are more international than EU wide...)

[Word]

We are extremely far from the basic ground of the argument saying that USA is polluting much more than EU does on a per capita basis, Word.

I'm not interested in that part of the debate since it was already addressed. I just try to get across how I think the study I linked should/should not be interpreted.

Yes, not all who live in Bulgaria or Romania had a bad education, but then why take broad studies to then talk about individuals?

The study says something about the knowledge concerning the questions that have been asked, and the particular branches of science they relate to, and maybe how important they are for that country's education system (or how successful it is) - but not much more. It's up to society and politicians to find out how these trends relate and can be changed (provided there's a need, time and money for that - and the study can help you estimate how much of these resources you might need). The study doesn't say anything about the reasons and effects - and as I tried to make clear in my previous posts, they are the thing that connects us with Romania and Bulgaria. If we want them to build our cars (I'm trying to say this neutrally), they need to know how to do that. The EU is supposed to be one big symbiont.

I still do not agree about your point on the governance of EU. The leaders of our countries meet to decide general goals, and there are votes on some topics.

The President of the United States is certainly the most powerful man in the world, but I think you underestimate the capabilites of American state governments (I guess most Europeans immediately think of Sarah Palin and the likes) and congress (when it's less passive). And as you will know, the American states do compete in many fields, just like those of the EU do.
It's not like the EU is pure chaos and powerless compared to that - for example, the last European country that still has the death penalty is Belarus. I wouldn't belittle topics like this.

Those topics are: economic regulations, budget regulations and market regulations.

It looks again like you assume this was a closed system and none of this bears any relevance for a country's education.

[takburger]

You seem to think that the political systems of EU and US are alike, but in fact they are not at all even if the organisation (states who have their say and whole thing on top) look alike.

The difference goes as deep as the roots of the political structure, where in US political institutions can sue each other. Which is actually a good thing to my opinion.

I do know that states have a very big importance in US, that is why we often say in EU that the US election of the president is not the biggest thing for US people but instead the governor for instance.

[Phytotron]

I'm deluded.

What does Germany have in common with let say Bulgaria... Or Romania...

At least the same amount of things Nevada has in common with Florida. [S]ame cultural roots, same climate (and thus basically the same animals/plants), similar religions....

In at least those areas Nevada and Florida are actually more different. The US is a big damn country encompassing a multitude of disparate characteristics; anyone who describes it in anything approaching uniform terms is flaunting their ignorance.

[takburger]

I'm deluded.

Funny, I just made a ctrl+F to try to find on those pages where else is written "deluded".

Written no where else than on you quoting me.

So you're actually making up a quote of something I never said.

You're a genius.

[Word]

In at least those areas Nevada and Florida are actually more different.

I mean, they're relatively similiar even in those categories if you compare them to some African or Chinese provinces/districts. Obama still doesn't have to show up with some drones/tanks to keep them happy (but maybe the NSA is just sufficient though...).

[takburger]

In at least those areas Nevada and Florida are actually more different.

I mean, they're relatively similiar even in those categories if you compare them to some African or Chinese provinces/districts. Obama still doesn't have to show up with some drones/tanks to keep them happy (but maybe the NSA is just sufficient though...).

Oh man China has a very harmonized politic, just some laws change across provinces depending mostly on economic factors. About the tank thing, well China has several sensitive zones which are muslim uyghur(north-west) and Tibet. Both are not needed of tanks but can have bombings. The areas where China needs tank is on border disputes with other countries.