Ladle Fortress 2014 (Discussion)

[orion]

yet again, for everyone

Sine, I think like seeds or not is mostly about tastes. You like to see new teams "grow" winning some games against another noob team. Some people, including myself, dont care about how far a noob team reach or dont think it makes sence. Both opinions are respectables I guess

I dont think you can convince each other

[epsy]

All opinions are great, but that kind of reasoning does not lead to decisions. Let them discuss it.

[Titanoboa]

and for the record, the only truly lopsided brackets pre-seeding that sine refers to, didn't exactly create a washout final.

Indeed, that was a very exciting final.

[Vogue]

The voice of "noob teams" should be the people who are in 'lesser' skilled clans. Getting opinions from people who reach semis and finals every ladle is pointless. It's like giving straight people the right to decide for homosexuals, letting the majority vote over the minority, it isn't right. Yeah, cool that orion doesn't give a **** about these noob teams, but that's irrelevant. Removing seeding means a team that would've made it to finals can get eliminated in the first round, and that's exciting as hell.

[wildcat]

I think the majority will agree to remove seeds. I would experiment with 7 player teams but I see no way it helps the weaker team. May be fun though. I see no need to do anything more radical than just removing seeds.

[bilbo baggins]

I think the majority will agree to remove seeds. I would experiment with 7 player teams but I see no way it helps the weaker team. May be fun though. I see no need to do anything more radical than just removing seeds.

on the contrary the format of fortress should constantly be changing, perhaps there should be a change every 3 or 4 ladles, meaning teams have to adapt to the new tactics and strategies used, if fort keeps evolving competition and smart tactics will be rewarded more than just skilled players taking it, if the change's are shit they can just be removed again but change is GOOD

[Mkay1]

and for the record, the only truly lopsided brackets pre-seeding that sine refers to, didn't exactly create a washout final.

Indeed, that was a very exciting final.

Don't forget about speedhax advancing to finals, past speeders on the other side of the bracket, and putting up a good fight. Before seeding, I believe??

[wildcat]

I think the majority will agree to remove seeds. I would experiment with 7 player teams but I see no way it helps the weaker team. May be fun though. I see no need to do anything more radical than just removing seeds.

on the contrary the format of fortress should constantly be changing, perhaps there should be a change every 3 or 4 ladles, meaning teams have to adapt to the new tactics and strategies used, if fort keeps evolving competition and smart tactics will be rewarded more than just skilled players taking it, if the change's are shit they can just be removed again but change is GOOD

Change is good in moderation. For example, with Basketball they extend the three point line or decrease the amount of seconds on the shotclock. Those things are seen as good for the game. But using a football to play the game or increasing the goal height to 11 ft would be dumb. Let's not do dumb things to a game that's fun how it is.

[Venijn]

There's no choice anymore. I could either try to get in a top clan, with options being to play for their second team, or be rejected - or I could apply for another clan incapable of challenging for a Ladle, or I could make my own. there's no consistent middle-ground clan (in terms of Ladle) - they're either very good, or just won't challenge.

Anything that increases the competition can only be a good thing, people might say it'll be boring if it's a one-sided final, but not for those finalists making it for the first time. Ultimately, it'll still determine who the best team that month is.

As the former Leader of Phoenix, I strongly suggest sine's ideas are adopted.

[orion]

After thinking a little bit....
Tennis is the most balanced sport on seeding terms. On any tournament (except Davis Cup and Masters) top 4 ranked are seeded, like in Ladle. But yea, there are always atleast 32 players or more when in Ladle only 16 as MUCH. What about 2 seeds?

Also, the way its determined is which teams got in finals last ladle.. May be better or may be not, but what about using Titan`s ELO rankings to determine the seeds? (its outdated 10 ladles aprox, i guess)

[sinewav]

...the only truly lopsided brackets pre-seeding that sine refers to, didn't exactly create a washout final.

Ha! That's right. This was when T.uNk was just hitting their stride and hadn't even made it to the semi-finals before that Ladle. I think L-34 was the point when everyone took notice and was like ":o hey they are going to be awesome one day!" It was the beginning of a Fortress love affair. Everyone was so happy when you finally won.

Change is good in moderation...Let's not do dumb things to a game that's fun how it is.

Yes. After years of playing Ladle I can safely say even the smallest changes can meet major resistance.

Since this is the time and place for it, I'll give you some of my reasoning for 7v7.

1. 7v7 would make the matches feel a little bigger.
2. Matches would be slightly shorter due to the extra player points (reduces Ladle time).
3. An extra player would open Fortress up for new tactics and strategies (Fort used to be 8v8!).
4. We would actually have regular midfield battles. All the actions wouldn't be exclusively at the zones.
5. ** Teams of 7 would make it harder for clans to enter 2nd squads, forcing talent to move around the community more.
6. Odd numbers rule.

What about 2 seeds?

I don't see 2 seeds as being any better than none. If we have seeds, we should seed the entire Ladle. But then we have to worry about teams joining and dropping out and player switching. If we were going to use and ELO format, we might as well make a league -- but few of us want that.

[orion]

Cosidering all this discussion, yes, 2 seeds helps both arguments
Newbies teams get the chance to have a little better bracket than with 4 seeds but it guarantee they should face a hard enemy in semi-finals.

[wildcat]

I Remember when unk was searching for the first ladle win, the seed gave us something to fight for to have a better chance to win the next month. Unk was not filled with prior ladle winners. We did practice and create tactics to gain an advantage. The seed helped us have a shot each month. Now the seed really doesn't mean anything. It's pretty much the same teams. Then it ensured us we didn't have to play CT or TX or whoever the first match. It gave us a reason to practice and be on our game each month. There was nothing more frustrating than being matched with a superior team in round 1 when teams like I'D and PRU had byes and first round matches after losing in first round consistently
I'm for removing seeds and even trying 7 player matches but not for giving teams first round byes randomly if we have an uneven number. This would be my mindset before our ladle wins at least.

[Cody]

Im all for seeding when it comes to large competition. (16~ teams not so much , yes theres 6 people on each team but its still 16 slots, compared to 1v1SB were there were 32 slots and 1v164 where there were 64 slots.)

As you may all know, when I hosted & created 1v1SB & 1v1:64 , I indeed seeded certain players so they did not meet til quarters/semis/final, but this was for creating an exciting ending to the tournament plus this was just based on individual skill.

Taking in teams to consideration and how limited fort(in my opinion) has become, removing seeds may just be what is needed. If you're the best, you'll still advance, with seeds or without.


off topic a bit, when can we have a no holes fort tournament? some1 host.

[Nub]

Just gonna put it in here, because it seems relevant.

When RoadrunnerZ made it past the first round, it was a HUGE confidence booster. Even when we got matched up against average teams, winning in any amount means a lot for a newer team. If removing seeds helps level out the playing field, why not?